Quote from: Anti-propaganda man on January 16, 2024, 14:01:08Why did you ignore the longer post I posted above that?
Why did you make 2 posts? I simply didn't see it as I saw your last post. Will address it below
QuoteYou keep lying and saying modern exhausts are harmful. They are not. There's more air pollution from tyres and brakes now. If trucks are converted to EV there will be 50-100% more trucks on the road causing much more air pollution and also in manufacturing.
If it isn't so bad, then you have no problem venting it into your cabin, correct?
And no, there isn't more air pollution from tires and brakes. The reason is because of how tires and brake pollution works, most of it is at high speed. Aka, highways. And most of it doesn't travel far. So in terms of actual real life exposure, the exhaust emits more pollution
Also, EVs do 1 peddle driving, so you use the brakes much less often
There is no reason for there to be 50-100% more trucks on the road if converted to EVs
And increase in manufacturing is minimal, 1 year break even and shrinking as EVs supply chain is optimized and platforms are optimized for EVs and not ICE cars converted to EVs
QuoteI mention small EVs to actually give you a chance! Because they make more sense than a giant truck! But they're still completely uneconomical and irrational. Endless weasel excuses that EVs will make sense in the future. Well maybe. We can decide that when we get there. Right now EVs are a complete waste of time and money and very few people should buy them. There should be no mandates or planned transition whatsoever.
EVs make sense for both cars and trucks
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You still haven't explained why you're pushing this insanity. You don't own an EV. So we can only conclude that you get off on being a conformist, or on being morally superior. But of course you aren't, because all the supposed wonderful flowers and daisies of EVs are complete nonsense.
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I do own an EV, where do you get the idea that I don't? I clearly said what I care about is fresh air, if you reroute your car exhaust into your own ICE car, feel free to drive it all you want
Quote from: Anti-propaganda man on January 14, 2024, 11:59:54Quote from: A on January 03, 2024, 21:53:47The break even on manufacturing EVs vs ICE cars is only 1 year, and as the grid gets cleaner and EV manufacturing process and supply chain gets more optimized for EVs, the amount shrinks by the year
I'm not talking about CO2, I'm talking about pollution. CO2 is not pollution. It is a primary nutrient for all life on earth. If you care about CO2, the break even is much longer than 1 year. For a Tesla it's 8 years.
The CO2 break even on an EV like a Tesla is only 1 year vs an ICE car of the same class on the US grid. As for other kinds, even less
As for CO2, all things in moderation. Just like eating food, overeating isn't good for you
QuoteQuote from: A on January 03, 2024, 21:53:47Not to mention manufacturing tends to be done away from the population, so less likely people to be exposed
But what about the environment? Isn't that a main reason why we are doing this? It is not "green".
It is beneficial for the environment as well. While there is not much difference in terms of manufacturing be it ICE or EV. For oil, you have to always keep getting more and more. Which means endless damage to the environment. Not to mention the air pollution. In comparison, EVs powered by renewables is sustainable and recyclable, limiting the amount of extraction needed
QuoteQuoteAs for diesel, let us stop pretending here. Diesel was lobbied in by automakers and fossil fuel industry to continue using oil. Otherwise, anyone with real common sense would have pushed hybrids. But that would have ticked off the oil industry, so they used diesel as a distraction
Absolute tin-foil hat conspiracy theory nonsense.
Please find me any real environmentalist who was pro-diesel. Diesel doesn't get us off fossil fuels any faster than gasoline does. Stop trying to shift blame
But for someone who keeps spewing nothing but tin-foil hat conspiracy theories, that is quite a funny statement
QuoteQuoteExcept you are ignoring that if you don't do transitioning properly, there are consequences. Even for gas cars, the government ripped out horse roads and put in car roads. And many places banned horse stables. If ICE cars were so great, why did they do that?
There is no need whatsoever for a 'transition'. It's an artificially imposed requirement (a mandate). Your second argument is a fallacy. The transition from horses to cars wasn't mandated by the government on non-tangible artificial grounds like the invisible non-pollutant CO2. Horses and carts are still used across the world... they weren't banned.
Many roads ban horses on them, many local governments also banned stables. Not to mention, car roads have the issue of damaging horse shoes.
But what you are saying is that instead of banning ICE cars, local governments should ban gas stations and require mixture of gasoline that would destroy car engines in 2-3 years? Is that what you prefer so it would be like switch from horses?
QuoteQuoteThe pollution you speak of is away from population. How much EV manufacturing pollution were you exposed to? Right, 0. As for car exhaust pollution, we are all exposed to it.
It is quite interesting that if you were to release toxic gas on the street, most people would go to jail or at least face fines. Unless you are in a car, then it is somehow okay
And so you know, if you get exposed to harmful pollution from EV manufacturing (or any manufacturing), you should be compensated as well. It is only you who believes ICE drivers should be "privileged special snowflakes"
Modern exhausts emissions are not harmful. The pollution is at such low concentration it is not a health risk. You know that. Stop lying.
Tyres and brakes now cause more pollution than exhausts. EVs are much heavier so will cause more air pollution due to more tyre and brakes wear. See source for data on tyre air pollution:
Quote from: The GuardianThe report estimates 52% of all the small particle pollution from road transport came from tyre and brake wear in 2021, plus a further 24% from abrasion of roads and their paint markings. Just 15% of the emissions came from the exhausts of cars and a further 10% from the exhausts of vans and HGVs.
Exhaust emissions from UK vehicles have fallen by 90% since 1996, according to the government data, owing to stricter standards being enforced. As a result, the particles from tyres, brakes and roads have become the main cause of pollution from traffic, presenting a new frontier in efforts to reduce levels of dirty air.
The emissions from cars exhaust is toxic, and even worse, most of that emissions is airborne making it into people's lungs. This is even more so since ICE cars tend to be less efficient in urban driving.
Most tire emissions are at highways. And they don't travel far. Of course don't get me wrong, something should be done to address tires as well. I am not in disagreement there. But in terms of actual damage to people's health, exhaust posses a bigger threat.
But one doesn't stop the other
QuoteQuoteOf course, first car factories were made using horses as well
Dumb. So-called renewables have to be made using fossil fuels. Mining and fabrication require those technologies.
They don't "require it", they simply use what is available from current infrastructure. None is required and is being transitioned as well with time
QuoteQuoteGoing from coal to gas is just more fossil fuel industry nonsense to keep fossil fuels around longer.
No. It was specifically for the purposes of reducing CO2 emissions. Now it's required as a backup for wind, as it can be turned on and off quickly unlike coal or nuclear. More conspiracy theory nonsense from you.
Nope, it simply because fossil gas was cheaper than coal. And it was used as a distraction to slow down renewables.
It isn't required for backing up wind at all. Wind can back itself up. But it keeps fossil fuels around longer
QuoteQuoteNuclear is fine and all, if we were in the 70-90s. But were are in the 2020s, and renewables are cheaper and better than nuclear.
No they're not. They've been fraudulently mis-sold as such. They have externalised costs which are deliberately not factored in, like 100% backup generation infrastructure and massive transmission networks for wind. If they were cheaper the developing world would be installing them, but they're not.
Everything has externalized cost, all powerplants need backup.
As for transmission lines, did you know that US has more fossil gas pipelines than high voltage transmission lines? And this is despite fossil gas pipes being more expensive. Do you know why? Cause fossil gas only needs to go through FERC. While high voltage transmission lines have to go through dozens of agencies
Speaking of externalized costs, what about all our wars like spending trillions in Iraq for oil? We even help Saudi Arabia, despite them manipulating costs against us, and most of the terrorists on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. What about that cost?
QuoteQuoteElectricity prices did go up due to Ukraine, but not just for gas, coal too. This is why fossil fuels are susceptible to price volatility. And didn't I show you that gas usage went down with increase in wind power? You are so weird
Yes, coal prices went up, as there was a global energy shortfall (well, everything went up in price, because energy underpins the economy). However this could be offset by more coal production. Britain has enough coal reserves for 2000 years of electricity generation at current usage. Unfortunately we've blown up all our power stations because CO2.
Yes, gas usage went down, but RELIANCE on it went up, as it underpins wind. It's required for it (an insurance), and electricity prices doubled, and that's WITH a price cap. The actual price of electricity is much higher still, which is amazing.
The Great Irish Potato famine didn't happen because the Irish did not have enough potatoes, Britain simply paid more for those potatoes and the Irish starved. As long as something is a global commodity, the price of it will be set by the global market. This is why here in US despite us producing huge amount of coal, gas and oil were still at the mercy of the high prices
Using less of it means reliance on it went down. It isn't like gas must be used instantly. And with time it will be 0 unless the fossil fuel industry stops the transistion
The price of gas and coal went up, you wouldn't escape global prices unless you transition away from them. The is the problem of being reliant on consumables
QuoteQuoteNone of those resources are rare or irreplaceable. Also I will point out that the report only looks at "select" resources, not "all" resources. For example, ICE cars require platinum which is way rarer than any of those resources. But since platinum is not one of the "select" resources, it isn't on the list
Maybe platinum is not on the list because only 3-7 grams are used per vehicle. It's not even known if there enough metals and minerals economically recoverable be able to make EVs for the whole world, let alone into the future (not sustainable).
The list only looks at minerals used by EVs, and not by ICE cars. And only the ones that would need scaling. That is why platinum is not included, which despite needing just a few grams is also much rarer and needs far more mining due to the lower concentration. 42% of the world's platinum demand is automotive industry
Even common elements in both like Iron is also not on there.
It is like me asking you who the worst person in the universe is, but you are limited to only naming people in this thread and their name must start with "Anti". See anyone can pick and choose to create a narrative when you set restrictions of only counting certain things
There is most definitely more than enough minerals that are economically recoverable for the entire world to go EVs for a 1000 years even if you don't count recycling. Add recycling and its a moot point
QuoteQuoteYour own quote admits the loss of nutrients, and do note that loss is in CROPS where nutrients are offset with fertilizer which still suffered 5%. Now what do you think happens to plants that wild life eats that don't get fertilizer?
I have no idea. Why don't you tell us. I suspect it wouldn't be a problem since 99% of the history of life on Earth has had much higher CO2 levels than today. 500 million - 5 million years ago.
And that is why dinosaurs were so huge, the stocked up on carbs. Unfortunately, current wild life isn't made to sustain such large amounts of carbs.
QuoteQuoteBy your hypothetical scenario, the worst results would be sustainability, clean air, clean water, and cheaper energy costs. The horror!
I bet you just the thought of not spreading toxins into your own family's lungs is eating away at your conscientious
Not sustainable since massive amounts of resources and expense involved. The air is already clean. The cleanliness of the water in developing countries would probably be reduced by a massive global increase in mining. Not cheaper, that's a lie. And it may all be for nothing if it turns out CO2 is not driving global warming.
People like you are in an anti-scientific cult that worships the abstract concept of "green" but actually harms the world. Go to church. You have a religious mentality of sacrificing things to abstract non-existent gods so that you can personally feel better. Unfortunately this is hard-wired into many people. You need to recognise this. So I'm telling you. Maybe you'll learn.
There is nothing new under the sun. In the past people were sacrificed and witches were burned so that the weather would be good and the good harvests would return. That's happening again. It's a replacement religion. Or else its an outlet for the political left to, whether knowingly or not, control others and engineer society, AS IT EVER WAS and AS IT EVER WILL BE!
The amount of resources transitioning to EVs and renewable energy and amount of extraction from the ground would actually be much much less as you aren't burning it. Mining would also go down with the transition
Look, I get it, you are part of the fossil fuel cult and believe fossil fuels are your god and can never be replaced by science and technology. But you can only be in denial of reality for so long.
But it is quite sad that in modern day we have cultists like you who sacrifice your own family at the altar of fossil fuels without batting an eye
Still, like the dawn of the human race, we move on.