Apple MacBook Pro 16 2023 M3 Max im Test - Mit dem M3 Max gegen die HX-CPUs von AMD & Intel

[Neenyah]

Du vergleichst ein ultraslim Thinkpad mit U Stromsparprozessor mit dem stärksten Notebook von Apple. Das Thinkpad P16 Gen 2 ist 2,6 cm hoch und wiegt 3 kg! Das ist die perfekte Mischung aus guter Kühlung, aber noch portabel (nicht alle brauchen ultra mobil).

P1 G6: https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6

• i7 13700H, i7 13800H, i9 13900H
• RTX 5000 Ada, RTX 4000 Ada, RTX 3500 Ada, RTX 2000 Ada, RTX A1000, RTX 4090, RTX 4080, RTX 4060
• Up to 96GB (2x 48GB DDR5)
• 16" (1920x1200, 2560x1600, 3840x2400)
• Touch models - Starting at 1.78 kg (3.92 lbs) - - 359.5 x 253.8 x 17.3 mm
• Non-touch models - Starting at 1.86 kg (4.11 lbs) - - 359.5 x 253.8 x 17.5 mm

[RobertJasiek]

@Plum, I started using computers in the age of IBM PCs when each had its full size desktop keyboard. That design was meaningful, as those PCs were meant for professional use. Notebooks etc. are the invaders into such an environment. Some irresponsible managers give employees notebooks with bad keyboard layouts and only then I have heard their complaints about them.

As to the developers, business people and content creators you know, the first question is: how often per day on average do they need to press on keys of the types a) arrows, b) digits, c) page navigation?

Sure, I have seen some Youtube video reviews of MBPs in which the reviewer, calling himself a content creator, never pressed any arrow key. I presume there are works for which it is simply not necessary.

For everything I frequently do (file management, picture browsing, text editing, game move traversal etc. - regardless whether work or private), the basic interaction to move between adjacent objects (files names, pictures, characters, game and variation moves and positions) is by arrow keys.

Designing a notebook never is about appealing "the most" people but always is about appealing "a sufficiently large number" of people to justify its creation. A small notebook serves people emphasising mobility. A large notebook serves people seeking a desktop replacement. Etc.

Apple does not serve all markets but only serves a particular "current Applefans mainstream" market. If Apple served more markets, it would create more kinds of devices including notebooks with versus without numpads, without versus with notch, tiny versus ordinarily sized arrow keys. Instead, Apple's parternalism decrees what (not people but only) Applefans need. People with different needs tend not to be Applefans.

NikoB is right about each current notebook being garbage in comparison to what notebooks could and should be.

Desktop as an alternative I have had to choose because each current (especially dGPU) notebook or 2-in-1 is garbage and the compromise of immobility is by far more easily bareable for me than the disadvantages of each notebook. I could use mobility within the house and garden and therefore could meaningfully use a notebook. A better mobile device for me would be a 2-in-1 because I often need displays in portrait position.

Connecting external display, keyboard and mouse to a notebook or 2-in-1 defeats the advantages of mobility and simplicity of handling. In that case, using a desktop with roughly 2 times the dGPU speed for the same price, very easier maintenance and much greater expected longuivity makes more sense for me.

[RobertJasiek]

Bei [Nvidia] hast du schlechtere Leistung pro Watt [...], aber eine bessere Kühlung. Apple mit guter Kühlung wäre das beste aus beiden Welten.

Dein Effizienzvergleich ist falsch.

Erstens hängt es von der Anwendung ab. Bei manchen Anwendungen sind Nvidia- und Apple-Chips ähnlich effizient. Bei anderen Anwendungen ist die Effizienz sehr verschieden.

Wenn es bei der Anwendung um reine Rechenleistung möglichst vieler verbauter Kerne geht (Beispiel: Anwendung maschinellen Lernens), ist Nvidia sehr viel effizienter (Geschwindigkeit pro Watt) als Apple:
home.snafu.de/jasiek/AI_Computer.html#mozTocId402496
Das liegt auch daran, dass Nvidias CUDA-, Tensor- und RT-Kerne benutzt zusammen mit allen Nvidia-Bibliotheken dafür 2,95-mal schneller als der Industrie-Default-Standard OpenCL ist.

[Plum]

@RobertJasiek

If there's a big enough market to produce and profitably sell the product you desire, why do you think nobody does it?

Apart from the metaphorical 'invasion' that you mentioned...

[RobertJasiek]

There are many reasons but let me mention the most important one: the manufacturers' excessive greed. They think they would earn more by a) upselling, b) (currency etc.) cheating or c) using some cheap components. They earn essentially nothing from me.

[Plum]

How can you upsell to something that according to you does not even exist?

And how do you know that they not really earn more by doing what they do?

Maybe there is really not enough potential buyers that would buy your dream machine that would outweigh the cost savings?

Unless you can back up your claims with some trustworthy statistics, it's little more than guesswork.

The manufacturers at least have some monetary incentive to be as profitable as possible.

So to me it seems reasonable to assume that among the dozens of vendors at least one would try to build your dream machine if the demand would really be that high.

I mean, they are building laptops for pretty much any niche, even with e-ink displays on the back...

[RobertJasiek]

How can you upsell to something that according to you does not even exist?

Upselling etc. is not restricted to devices I would want to buy but is also frequent for devices I don't want.

And how do you know that they not really earn more by doing what they do?

I do not know this but I do know that I and some others do not feed these manufacturers and try to convince others to abstain them, too. It is competition between the manufacturers' greed and the price-sensitive endusers. You might praise Apple for its greed having resulted in its richness and love feeding them - I consider the possibility that Apple might have become even richer by not being greedy, avoid giving it money whenever possible and point out the danger of too little taxed megacorporations for democracies.

Maybe there is really not enough potential buyers that would buy your dream machine that would outweigh the cost savings?

There is not "the one dream machine" for everybody but there can be several dream machines for different kinds of endusers. For every kind of device, there can be aspects of cheapening out or every aspect can have a sufficient quality. E.g., every device (unlike current MBPs) might have the quality of display reaction times smaller than 16.67ms guaranteeing 60+Hz actual refresh rate recognised by the human eye. E.g., every device (unlike former MBPs with their Butterflies) might have the quality of a reasonably lasting keyboard.

Unless you can back up your claims with some trustworthy statistics, it's little more than guesswork.

Not every aspect needs statistics or overcoming Apple's suppression of reports by users affected by malfunctioning devices to be valid. Reasoning is often enough.

The manufacturers at least have some monetary incentive to be as profitable as possible.

Never stop defending their - Apple's - excessive greed ;)

So to me it seems reasonable to assume that among the dozens of vendors at least one would try to build your dream machine if the demand would really be that high.

For mobile devices, some try to some extent but cheapen out at some aspects.

For DIY desktop component's, when there are no current crises such as Corona or mining boom, it is possible to buy quality components at reasonable prices from various manufacturers and build something close to one's dream machine. There the major limit is physics: greatest speed, silence and small form factor cannot be combined. The enduser has to compromise on at least one of these three aspects.

For mobile devices and prebuilt desktops, the manufacturers combine the components and, currently (it was different in earlier decades), they refuse to do what wise DIY endusers do for their desktops. Therefore currently, even wise endusers cannot buy close to dream mobile devices. We can only abstain from mobile devices and build our DIY desktops. There is never a technical necessity for manufacturers to get some aspects of their mobile devices wrong but they fail due to their greed, partial incompetence, laziness, paternalism, criminal behaviour, stubbornness etc.

I mean, they are building laptops for pretty much any niche, even with e-ink displays on the back...

They could build everything but they concentrate on PR aspects to upsell devices under their pretence.

Mirroring displays for tablets are a typical example. Instead of solving the problem of glare displays by also offering matte displays or glare displays essentially without mirroring (yes, this technology has existed for ca. 10 years now), they shorten the battery life by increasing brightness beyond any reason, add e-ink on a second display, make the device useless by a tightly restrictive OS (Amazon's former tablets with matte displays) or restrict matte displays to too hot, too large, too narrow, too expensive devices of a related but different category (Wacom graphics tablets as mouse replacements for graphics workers) because ordinary tablets are outside the intended product scale (of Wacom, as they confirmed to me).

[Plum]

I'm not sure why you keep talking about Apple. I'm also not a fan of many of their practices e.g. the expensive RAM and hard drive updates. But my initial point was that NikoB is ranting under every review, so it's rather a coincidence that this happens to be the Apple review.

Often without even properly reading the information given in the review e.g. he just criticized the color deviations of the display of the Zenbook Pro 16X under the English review, claiming that it would not be possible to do color work with it although the review clearly states that there is also the native mode for that. So unlike you say he is definitely not always right.

Nonetheless for him every device belongs 'under the Bulldozer', which seems disingenuous and rather pathetic. We can observe similar behavior under almost every review.

"There the major limit is physics: greatest speed, silence and small form factor cannot be combined. The enduser has to compromise on at least one of these three aspects."

Exactly, and while I of course agree that companies tend to be greedy, they also tend to try to build machines where this compromise finds the biggest possible amount of buyers.

But you have people like NikoB who seem not to understand that different people have different requirements, e.g. he neglects that there are groups of people in need of thin and light, but powerful devices despite the obvious limitations. These people are for example digital nomads, people who spend 3-4 days per week in different hotel rooms, frequent travelers, people who have two or more different homes between which they constantly commute etc.

Despite that, he feels the need to preach to these people under every such review that the device is crap, that it will only collect dust and that they would be far better off with a desktop computer.

At the same time, every laptop that does not fulfill every single one of his own requirements, is 'pure garbage' and nothing more.

In that regard, he is probably the most egocentric person I've ever met.

[RobertJasiek]

I'm not sure why you keep talking about Apple.

To start with, because I exercise my human and basic rights to freedom of speech.

There are also specific reasons, of course, such as
- informing to counter attempts of desinformation,
- mitigating Apple's in some respects bad impacts on the computer industry and societies,
- motivating Apple to produce better products and services.

NikoB [...] is definitely not always right.

Indeed, as I have just pointed out in another thread. He is often right WRT to notebook criticism though.

they also tend to try to build machines where this compromise finds the biggest possible amount of buyers.

Disagree for reasons explained before.

But you have people like NikoB who seem not to understand that different people have different requirements, e.g. he neglects that there are groups of people in need of thin and light, but powerful devices despite the obvious limitations.

Nah, I rather think he understands this well but is provocative.

These people are for example digital nomads, people who spend 3-4 days per week in different hotel rooms, frequent travelers, people who have two or more different homes between which they constantly commute etc.

Reasonable assumption.

In that regard, he is probably the most egocentric person I've ever met.

Oh, there are people out there in the net that are him squared;) Not every forum is as calm as NBC :)

[NikoB]

Often without even properly reading the information given in the review e.g. he just criticized the color deviations of the display of the Zenbook Pro 16X under the English review, claiming that it would not be possible to do color work with it although the review clearly states that there is also the native mode for that. So unlike you say he is definitely not always right.

Another nonsense from an incompetent layman:
1. The author of the review proved that everything is bad with hardware calibration. dE > 6. This is the level of shameful screens with 45-46% NTSC.
2. All professionals do hardware calibration a priori.
3. All AMOLEDs degrade many times faster in terms of color accuracy than the backlight and phosphor of IPS/VA panels due to their physical shortcomings. This leads to point 2, which automatically leads to an even worse result in point 1.

You'd have to be an idiot not to understand this.

Paid Asus bots in that thread (which immediately burned) naturally went into a rage, but I'm calm. =)

I don't work for any laptop company, so I'm truly independent. And I evaluate each model and each manufacturer only from the point of view of the ratio of quality x capabilities divided by the indicated price. And that's all.


RobertJasiek,

thank you for your quality comments, but you are trying to fight pathological ignorance or paid bots of the manufacturers here who hide under the supposedly ordinary readers (the most common option on forums where critical reviews are dangerous for the sales of these brands).

In fact, it is useless to argue with them, as in the topic on Asus 16X, they will try to do only one thing - to cover the topic with endless garbage, lowering valuable comments as low as possible for readers who, in general, are lazy enough to flip through several pages (and the scheme for publishing comments is done like this that the latest comments are visible first under the article, this is a long-standing scheme). This is what these bots and marketers are counting on, the stupidity and laziness of the crowd.

We can only "wake up" a small layer of people who are in a borderline state between outright chronic ignorance (and deliberate) and those who in life are trying to figure everything out, being people with rational critical thinking, but they lack experience and strength, here we are we help them. There are not very many of them, otherwise marketing and all the nonsense in all human activity simply would not work and would not exist. Alas, the world is completely different, it is a much more unpleasant place for adequate people than it seems to naive young people. The older you get, the more clearly you understand this. And our attempts are for the most part akin to a war with water or mills. They certainly change the attitude of the crowd and those who are trying to manipulate their consciousness, but only with sufficient influence on the mass audience - where the influence is as wide as possible (I have been convinced of this more than once) the censors are in collusion with the producers (or interested parties), i.e. To. they pay them, quickly delete critical comments, and if it becomes difficult to justify it with the rules (or they themselves dirtyly ignore their own rules - the most common case), then simply the most critically thinking commentator.

The Internet has long been commercialized. His romantic stage is long past. There is monstrous censorship everywhere, with rare exceptions. Precisely because this is a dirty business - you can't deceive, you can't sell, en masse, to fools with money. The more complex the product, the more ways to deceive the incompetent majority of the population. Only an increased level of education and well-trained critical thinking can counteract this, but the powerful layers, working in symbiosis with greedy business, are interested in raising consumers, not critically thinking people in each new generation - this is a system as soon as there are too many people on the planet . Both the first and second, such critically thinking people are mortally dangerous given their significant numbers in each individual country.

[Plum]

@RobertJasiek

You have not explained it above, as if there was enough of a target audience for the devices you desire, and enough smart people who see through the tricks you describe, at least one manufacturer would try to build such devices and reap the rewards.

That said, to me it is obvious now that RobertJasiek and NikoB are the same person with two accounts. Whearas NikoB represents the conspiracy theorist with an angry mob mentality, RobertJasiek represents his more civil counterpart.

That is why they usually appear in threads together and defend each other vigorously ;)

[RobertJasiek]

RobertJasiek and NikoB are the same person

You desinform.

[NikoB]

his more civil counterpart.

You and others like you don't even have a shred of understanding in your head of what civilization is and what civilized behavior is. So it's not for you to judge.

[Aiman]

Du vergleichst ein ultraslim Thinkpad mit U Stromsparprozessor mit dem stärksten Notebook von Apple. Das Thinkpad P16 Gen 2 ist 2,6 cm hoch und wiegt 3 kg! Das ist die perfekte Mischung aus guter Kühlung, aber noch portabel (nicht alle brauchen ultra mobil).

P1 G6: psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_P1_Gen_6

• i7 13700H, i7 13800H, i9 13900H
• RTX 5000 Ada, RTX 4000 Ada, RTX 3500 Ada, RTX 2000 Ada, RTX A1000, RTX 4090, RTX 4080, RTX 4060
• Up to 96GB (2x 48GB DDR5)
• 16" (1920x1200, 2560x1600, 3840x2400)
• Touch models - Starting at 1.78 kg (3.92 lbs) - - 359.5 x 253.8 x 17.3 mm
• Non-touch models - Starting at 1.86 kg (4.11 lbs) - - 359.5 x 253.8 x 17.5 mm

Was ich meinte: Lenovo gibt dir die Möglichkeit auch Notebooks mit besserer Kühlung und besserer Leistung und dafür schwererem und etwas dickerem Gehäuse zu kaufen. Bei Apple ist man auf Gedeih und Verderb auf unter 2cm und 2kg begrenzt.

Ich würde gerne den M3 Max in einem dickeren Gehäuse mit besserer Kühlung sehen und 100-120W Grafikpower statt 60W und 80-90W CPU statt 55W. Dann könnte Apple nicht nur in Effizienz die Windows Konkurrenz schlagen, sondern auch bei absoluter Leistung

[RobertJasiek]

Dann könnte Apple nicht nur in Effizienz die Windows Konkurrenz schlagen, sondern auch bei absoluter Leistung

Solch allgemeine Aussagen gelten nicht. Es hängt immer auch von Software, Treibern, Bibliotheken, Chiphardwarekomponenten und deren Nutzung durch Vorgenanntes ab. Da M-Chips auch GPU-, RAM- und VRAM-Funktionalität enthalten, hängt es außerdem im Vergleich zu Windows / Linux von dGPUs, RAM-Riegeln und Firmware ab.