Tesla asks EPA to end gas vehicle sales by 2030 as cheaper electric cars with longer range speed up EV transition

[Redaktion]

Tesla expects its cars to become drastically cheaper and sell many more units than the US government projects in the next few years, so it demands even more stringent emission standards for gas-powered vehicles. The EPA's current proposal is for 67% of cars sold in 2032 to be zero-emission.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-asks-EPA-to-end-gas-vehicle-sales-by-2030-as-cheaper-electric-cars-with-longer-range-speed-up-EV-transition.732933.0.html

[John Fisher]

Rent seeking much?

[Nameless]

Tesla's chutzpah knows no bounds. How about Tesla ends gas vehicle sales by releasing a compelling EV that:
1. is affordable
2. has no surveillance cameras in the cockpit
3. has a battery that's affordable, incombustible, undegradable, quick to charge, slow to drain, whose functionality and health aren't negatively affected by extreme cold/hot weather, not as heavy as current battery tech (which makes EVs heavier and deadlier in car accidents than comparable ICE cars thanks to Newton's 3rd law), isn't made exclusively by Chinese companies that enrich the CCP

[nope]

Tesla's chutzpah knows no bounds. How about Tesla ends gas vehicle sales by releasing a compelling EV that:
1. is affordable
2. has no surveillance cameras in the cockpit
3. has a battery that's affordable, incombustible, undegradable, quick to charge, slow to drain, whose functionality and health aren't negatively affected by extreme cold/hot weather, not as heavy as current battery tech (which makes EVs heavier and deadlier in car accidents than comparable ICE cars thanks to Newton's 3rd law), isn't made exclusively by Chinese companies that enrich the CCP

1. EVs are already closing in to price parity in the hi mid 30000$ tier, until 2030 they'll only get cheaper and cheaper, not to mention the ongoing savings vs combustion technologies
2. Features like that are becoming the norm (and mandated by law) to monitor things like driver fatigue, ICE cars either have or will get them soon too.
3. An EV is not heavier than a big SUV/Truck and generally speaking EVs are much safer in a crash than any ICE vehicle. Battery fires are a big problem but also much much less frequent than ICE fires. And then again, by 2030 the tech will be even better than it already is.

A 2030 ICE ban would be nice but it's kind of irrelevant at this point, anyone still selling new ICE vehicles by then can pretty much prepare to close shop as they simply won't be competitive.

[t4n0n]

Tesla's chutzpah knows no bounds. How about Tesla ends gas vehicle sales by releasing a compelling EV that:
1. is affordable
2. has no surveillance cameras in the cockpit
3. has a battery that's affordable, incombustible, undegradable, quick to charge, slow to drain, whose functionality and health aren't negatively affected by extreme cold/hot weather, not as heavy as current battery tech (which makes EVs heavier and deadlier in car accidents than comparable ICE cars thanks to Newton's 3rd law), isn't made exclusively by Chinese companies that enrich the CCP

Broadly agree with the first two points, however, Tesla's are generally considered to be the safest cars out there, when it comes to collisions.

The lack of an engine in the front means the cars have an enormous crumple zone, compared to ICE vehicle - where the unfortunate driver and front passenger effectively play that role.

There's literally the case where a guy (allegedly) tried to kill himself and his family by driving off a 250ft cliff at 80Mph in a Tesla, only for them to all survive, with only minor injuries.

[A]

Rent seeking much?

Gasoline cars rent seeking on our health? Yes.

Tesla's chutzpah knows no bounds. How about Tesla ends gas vehicle sales by releasing a compelling EV that:
1. is affordable
2. has no surveillance cameras in the cockpit
3. has a battery that's affordable, incombustible, undegradable, quick to charge, slow to drain, whose functionality and health aren't negatively affected by extreme cold/hot weather, not as heavy as current battery tech (which makes EVs heavier and deadlier in car accidents than comparable ICE cars thanks to Newton's 3rd law), isn't made exclusively by Chinese companies that enrich the CCP

1. Did you not read the article? Tesla is saying that more affordable EVs are coming and that EPA's data is outdated
2. Your laptop and cellphone has a surveillance camera and they are in far more private locations than your car. If they annoy you use the same things people do with laptops and cellphones, get privacy blockers
3. Price of batteries have been dropping rapidly every year, and as for incombustable and undegradable, that would defy the laws of physics cause anything can be made to combust and everything goes to wear and tear degrades. Gasoline cars are far more likely to combust, and their engines aren't immune to degradion either as mpg falls with age.

Thermal management already keeps the battery running at optimum temperatures. And again gasoline cars are not immune to being effected by heat/cold. EVs can operate at much lower and higher temperatures than gasoline cars.

Tesla cars weight only around 10% more than other vehicles in their own class, and weight will further be reduced with the structural battery. Overall, EVs are much safer in crashes due to increased crumple zones.

Tesla makes US cars in US. Latest data shows Tesla is the most US made cars. And with IRA, more and more EVs and their supply chain will come to America as IRA requires domestic content for mining, processing and manufacturing of EVs and their batteries

[Nameless]

@nope @a

Regarding Tesla's promises of cheaper EVs, I'll believe it when I see it. Nowadays EVs still cost over 30,000$, while brand new ICE cars can be had for as low as 10,000$, so as things currently stand it can take many years to break even with EVs.

Features like that are becoming the norm

Ah yes, the infamous agreeable, spineless consumer. I bet you just love having your inalienable right to privacy taken from you. Screw me harder daddy Elon, amirite? Your mindset is no different than that of a victim in an abusive relationship. You don't have to accept car makers' BS policies. Vote with your wallet, buy an older car if you have to.

(and mandated by law)

Not in my country. Why won't you vote out tyrannical politicians?

to monitor things like driver fatigue

Ohhh it's for our safety? I don't need a trillion dollar corpo to keep me safe. I'm a responsible adult. In fact, the chance that I'll drive while being sleepy or intoxicated is significantly lower than the chance that you'll plow through a group of pedestrians in a fit of madness- should Tesla also install a pistol in the cockpit to neutralize you just in case (you know, for the safety of the innocent pedestrians)?

ICE cars either have or will get them soon too

Can you guess which ICE car won't get them? My current, trusty ICE car. And the second-hand market, too, for years to come.

and they are in far more private locations than your car

False assumption.

get privacy blockers

BS solution. The EV won't drive until I remove the privacy blockers, will it?

An EV is not heavier than a big SUV/Truck

You misunderstood me- EVs are heavier than comparable (meaning, similarly-sized) ICE cars.

anyone still selling new ICE vehicles by then can pretty much prepare to close shop as they simply won't be competitive.

I'm not against that, but color me skeptical.

Price of batteries have been dropping rapidly every year

Wrong. bloomberg (.) com /news/articles/2022-12-06/battery-prices-climb-for-first-time-just-as-more-evs-hit-market.

as for incombustable and undegradable, that would defy the laws of physics

There are multiple types of battery technologies under development, such as solid-state battery, that are incombustible. And the 2%-per-year battery degradation is a deal-breaker for me, especially with current battery prices (I can't imagine my car's gas tank shrinking 2% a year), as well as the slow charging time.
dailymail (.) co (.) uk /sciencetech/article-7588631/Scientists-develop-incombustible-lithium-ion-battery-following-Samsung-Note-7-fiasco.html
finance (.) yahoo (.) com /news/ceramic-battery-could-replace-lithium-190000584.html
engadget (.) com /lithium-ion-battery-salt-fireproofing-213055538.html

IRA requires domestic content for mining, processing and manufacturing of ... EVs and their batteries

Until that happens, the CCP will laugh all the way to the bank.

[N9DF]

The headline was changed from "Tesla asks EPA to end gas vehicle sales by 2030" to "Tesla argues gas vehicles can be banned as soon as 2030". I wonder why..

[A]

Regarding Tesla's promises of cheaper EVs, I'll believe it when I see it. Nowadays EVs still cost over 30,000$, while brand new ICE cars can be had for as low as 10,000$, so as things currently stand it can take many years to break even with EVs.

The cheapest car sold right now in US is $17,650 according to cars (.) com

Ah yes, the infamous agreeable, spineless consumer. I bet you just love having your inalienable right to privacy taken from you. Screw me harder daddy Elon, amirite? Your mindset is no different than that of a victim in an abusive relationship. You don't have to accept car makers' BS policies. Vote with your wallet, buy an older car if you have to.

I am all for privacy, but I also realize the difference between privacy and false sense of privacy. Like all the people panicing about the privacy of Alexa not realizing that their phone mic and laptop mic is always on. The accelemeter can also be used as a mic. Or those people who freak out at government charing people per mile based on privacy, not realizing all modern cars have cellular that can triangulate your location. Not to mention your cellphone.

BS solution. The EV won't drive until I remove the privacy blockers, will it?

Not sure where you get that nonsense idea, they will drive just fine.

You misunderstood me- EVs are heavier than comparable (meaning, similarly-sized) ICE cars.

Tesla Model 3 weight = 3,862 to 4,048 lbs

It's size class is between a BMW 3 series and 5 series so:
BMW 3 series weight = 3,582 to 4,138 lbs
BMW 5 series weight = 4,041 to 4,158 lbs

Wrong. bloomberg (.) com /news/articles/2022-12-06/battery-prices-climb-for-first-time-just-as-more-evs-hit-market.

Temporary jump due to short term supply shortages, it's already going back down:

assets (.) bwbx (.) io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i9halZecvEAY/v0/-1x-1  (.)  png

as for incombustable and undegradable, that would defy the laws of physics

There are multiple types of battery technologies under development, such as solid-state battery, that are incombustible. And the 2%-per-year battery degradation is a deal-breaker for me, especially with current battery prices (I can't imagine my car's gas tank shrinking 2% a year), as well as the slow charging time.
[/quote]
There is no such thing as incombustable. Combustion is relative, anything can combust given the effort. Just like EVs are much less likely to combust than gasoline cars, but that is relative.

Of course what does combust in a lithium ion battery is the liquid flurocarbon electrolyte, once we move away from that the chance of combustion will fall even more. But again, that is relative.

Until that happens, the CCP will laugh all the way to the bank.

The IRA already happened.

[A]

And the 2%-per-year battery degradation is a deal-breaker for me (I can't imagine my car's gas tank shrinking 2% a year)

You can't imagine but that is what happens.

"a study by the University of Michigan found that vehicles over 10 years old consume 33% to 35% more fuel per mile compared to newer vehicles"

[Elmer]

We're mostly talking about cost, but who likes the smell and pollution created by gas-powered cars?
  Getting your hands dirty every time you open the hood?
  As a musician, I will also be happy to say goodbye to their awful noise, and we can expect scientific advances to reduce noise from the road surface.  For me, only one thing can make people choose gasoline cars over electric vehicles, the same thing that generates racism, fear of change.  At the beginning of the twentieth century we heard the same criticisms from the supporters of horses... this time the transition will go much faster. Don't fight the progress, embrace it!

[Nameless]

The cheapest car sold right now in US is $17,650 according to cars (.) com

There's your problem- you limited your search to the US. Try searching in Europe and Asia.

I am all for privacy, but I also realize the difference between privacy and false sense of privacy. Like all the people panicing about the privacy of Alexa not realizing that their phone mic and laptop mic is always on. The accelemeter can also be used as a mic. Or those people who freak out at government charing people per mile based on privacy, not realizing all modern cars have cellular that can triangulate your location. Not to mention your cellphone.

My DESKTOP PC doesn't have a built-in microphone, and I have easy to implement methods to prevent my phone from invading my privacy. Obviously the government can hack every computer in my possession, but where I draw the line is having cameras and microphones monitoring me in my private space. Cameras in the cockpit doesn't have to become the "norm". Shills want customers to believe that corporations are all-knowing all-powerful beings, and that the latters' greedy goals are inevitable, but it just doesn't have to be this way.

Not sure where you get that nonsense idea, they will drive just fine.

Tesla has sensors in the steering wheel to make sure the driver's hands are on wheel. If the sensors detect that hands are off wheel, the driver will be alerted and the car will stop driving. I assume the cameras behave in the same manner when blocked. This German driver bypassed the steering wheel sensors by attaching a weight to the wheel in order to keep autopilot on while taking a nap.
insideevs (.) com/news/628998/tesla-driver-falls-asleep-autobahn-autopilot-drives-for-15-mins/

The IRA already happened.

Maybe it will put an end to North America's reliance on Chinese batteries, but China will continue to dominate the EV battery market in the rest of the world.

You can't imagine but that is what happens. "a study by the University of Michigan found that vehicles over 10 years old consume 33% to 35% more fuel per mile compared to newer vehicles"

I got curious, because you didn't provide a link and my well-maintained ICE car hasn't experienced fuel efficiency degradation, certainly not "33% to 35%", so I googled that quote and only found a blogpost which didn't provide a source to that so called "study", and no mention of this "study" elsewhere.

I'm not against EVs becoming vastly superior to ICE cars, in fact I'd welcome it wholeheartedly. What I do have a problem with, aside from current EVs' shortcomings, is the anti-competitive lobbying, which is an indefensible position that you shamelessly try to defend.

[A]

There's your problem- you limited your search to the US. Try searching in Europe and Asia.

If you count Asia, there are plenty of cheap EVs under 10k.

My DESKTOP PC doesn't have a built-in microphone, and I have easy to implement methods to prevent my phone from invading my privacy. Obviously the government can hack every computer in my possession, but where I draw the line is having cameras and microphones monitoring me in my private space. Cameras in the cockpit doesn't have to become the "norm". Shills want customers to believe that corporations are all-knowing all-powerful beings, and that the latters' greedy goals are inevitable, but it just doesn't have to be this way.

But your cellphone has a camera right? End of the day, more people want features and are not willing to sacrifice convenience for privacy.

Tesla has sensors in the steering wheel to make sure the driver's hands are on wheel. If the sensors detect that hands are off wheel, the driver will be alerted and the car will stop driving. I assume the cameras behave in the same manner when blocked. This German driver bypassed the steering wheel sensors by attaching a weight to the wheel in order to keep autopilot on while taking a nap.

That's for autopilot, you can still drive the car normally. And all you describe was due to government requiring it for autopilot.

Maybe it will put an end to North America's reliance on Chinese batteries, but China will continue to dominate the EV battery market in the rest of the world.

Who knows? Europe is crafting similar legislation.

I'm not against EVs becoming vastly superior to ICE cars, in fact I'd welcome it wholeheartedly. What I do have a problem with, aside from current EVs' shortcomings, is the anti-competitive lobbying, which is an indefensible position that you shamelessly try to defend.

What anti-competitive lobbying do you speak of?

[Nameless]

If you count Asia, there are plenty of cheap EVs under 10k.

Yeah, and these toy EVs have a laughable 100km range and they take many hours to charge. Meanwhile even the cheapest ICE car has over 700km range and takes a couple of minutes to fuel.

But your cellphone has a camera right?

Just put it in the drawer or put a privacy blocker on its camera, problem solved.

End of the day, more people want features and are not willing to sacrifice convenience for privacy.

What percentage of cars sold around the globe in 2023 have surveillance cameras in the cockpit? There are plenty of people who care about privacy, and they create a niche which car companies can't ignore. Whether they're the majority or minority is up for debate.

That's for autopilot, you can still drive the car normally. And all you describe was due to government requiring it for autopilot.

That same government could also outlaw privacy blockers. And what's stopping Tesla from programming the car to stop driving if the cameras detect they're blocked? I'd rather not have cameras in the cockpit in the first place.

Who knows? Europe is crafting similar legislation.

Even still, it will take them years to build the manufacturing plants to produce enough batteries to become self-reliant.

What anti-competitive lobbying do you speak of?

Tesla lobbying the EPA to get ICE cars banned in 2030.

[A]

Yeah, and these toy EVs have a laughable 100km range and they take many hours to charge. Meanwhile even the cheapest ICE car has over 700km range and takes a couple of minutes to fuel.

Your logic is flawed, the car I mentioned which is cheapest in US has 578km range which is less than 700km.

And technology continues to improve by the year, so not sure where you are getting

Just put it in the drawer or put a privacy blocker on its camera, problem solved.

Isn't that what I said? But you gave a fit about doing that

What percentage of cars sold around the globe in 2023 have surveillance cameras in the cockpit? There are plenty of people who care about privacy, and they create a niche which car companies can't ignore. Whether they're the majority or minority is up for debate.

They have microphones at the very least.

And we all know that those truly caring about privacy are a minority unfortunately, most prefer convenience

That same government could also outlaw privacy blockers. And what's stopping Tesla from programming the car to stop driving if the cameras detect they're blocked? I'd rather not have cameras in the cockpit in the first place.

And government can force you to be on video 24/7, your point?

What's stopping from any car manufacturer from stopping your car? They all have cellular radios in them.

I mean you realize that Tesla is a corporation, one that has to make money right? Why in the world would they do something like that which would harm their sales? Unless government forces it, and at that point all cars would have it anyways.

Even still, it will take them years to build the manufacturing plants to produce enough batteries to become self-reliant.

Okay, and?

Tesla lobbying the EPA to get ICE cars banned in 2030.

When any government agency passes rules, they are required to take public comment on the rules. All Tesla is saying here is that EVs can reach all benchmarks much earlier than EPA predicts. This is to counter other manufacturers who are asking to soften the rules. The rules do not mandate EVs though unlike the article claims, they simply set emissions standards for fleet average. And the estimate of EVs to gas cars is simply one scenario to achieve that goal, but not the only way as it doesn't dictate technology

Do understand one thing, Tesla has nothing to gain financially if EPA makes the rules stricter. The more other brands invest in EVs, the more competition Tesla has. The more they ignore it, the more edge Tesla has over their competitors. Of course Tesla's goal is to push transition to electric. The only benefit they get from more going electric is price drop for everyone due to economies of scale, but it isn't worth giving up your huge lead for.

That said, if you want to talk about anti-competitiveness, why is it that gas cars are allowed to harm our health and pollute our air? If I were to throw toxic gas at you, I'd get arrested, if I did it from my car exhaust, then its okay. Isn't that special treatment? How about all gas cars reroute their exhaust to their interior? Let the driver pay the cost instead of sharing it with others