EV tax incentives increase adoption but continued reliance on ICE vehicles, limited charging infrastructure damper excitement

[Redaktion]

Research seems to suggest that, although federal EV tax incentives and lower cost of ownership are attracting buyers to the electric vehicle market, many EV owners only buying an additional electric vehicle instead of replacing an ICE one. EV charging infrastructure is still seen as a major barrier to entry, despite expanding charger availability and a tendency for owners to charge at home.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/EV-tax-incentives-increase-adoption-but-continued-reliance-on-ICE-vehicles-limited-charging-infrastructure-damper-excitement.723394.0.html

[A]

There is no problem at all really, because:

1) 20% of vehicle emissions is manufacturing, 80% is driving. As long as people are driving the EV most of the time that is all that matters

2) Even if they may not be replacing their car now, that doesn't mean they won't be in the future. A person may buy an EV as their 2nd car, try it and like it than replace their ICE car with another EV next time around. The biggest barrier is getting people familiar with EVs, once that is out of the way adoption will go up

As for things like charging stations, in US:
"The number of charging ports increased more in 2022 than in the preceding three years combined, with about 54,000 Level 2 and 10,000 Level 3 chargers added during 2022"

That brings the total to "126,500 Level 2 and 20,431 Level 3 charging ports" aka, the level 2 and 3 chargers pretty much doubled in a single year.

In comparison there are around 115k gas stations

[indy]

How many of those electrical changing stations actually work?

How many work for any electrical vehicle that needs to charge?

How long does it take to charge an EV for each use case?

What is the location of accessible charging stations?

Right now, EV charging stations couldn't begin to scale for the needs of the infrastructure.

THAT is a massive hurdle.

Right now, EVs are for upper class. That isn't going to make any significant dent in carbon reduction in the next decade, if not longer. Most of the country doesn't have 40-60K available for an EV.

We're not even talking about 3rd world and 2nd world countries, where many don't even have catalytic converters on their vehicles and zero migration plans to EV.

[A]

How many of those electrical changing stations actually work?

How many work for any electrical vehicle that needs to charge?

How long does it take to charge an EV for each use case?

What is the location of accessible charging stations?

Right now, EV charging stations couldn't begin to scale for the needs of the infrastructure.

THAT is a massive hurdle.

Right now, EVs are for upper class. That isn't going to make any significant dent in carbon reduction in the next decade, if not longer. Most of the country doesn't have 40-60K available for an EV.

We're not even talking about 3rd world and 2nd world countries, where many don't even have catalytic converters on their vehicles and zero migration plans to EV.

Most EV charging stations work just fine.

Also, not all EVs are 40k-60k. There are EVs in the 20k-40k range. Hell even a Tesla can be gotten for around 33k after tax credit

And cheaper EVs are coming within the next few years.

[mixedfish]

Inducing EV adoption for private passenger vehicles has got to be one of the most dumb things I've seen first world countries jump over themselves to commit to. You spend billions upon billions of tax payer money to fund private companies and line their profits only to eliminate what is already fairly clean relative to the utility each ICE vehicle gives to their owners.

If the billions of dollars were instead directed to make green and stabilize the power grids, force industries/manufactures to adopt alternatives like hydrogen, push for the currently massively underfunded/delayed public transport options etc etc You are addressing the core of the emissions and waste issues in any society.

I am not saying any of my examples are the solution but notice how all of them are an investment into the future that will have lasting sustainable behavioral changes. Simply moving from consumption products to another consumption product is just pushing out the mess into the future.

[A]

Inducing EV adoption for private passenger vehicles has got to be one of the most dumb things I've seen first world countries jump over themselves to commit to. You spend billions upon billions of tax payer money to fund private companies and line their profits only to eliminate what is already fairly clean relative to the utility each ICE vehicle gives to their owners.

If the billions of dollars were instead directed to make green and stabilize the power grids, force industries/manufactures to adopt alternatives like hydrogen, push for the currently massively underfunded/delayed public transport options etc etc You are addressing the core of the emissions and waste issues in any society.

I am not saying any of my examples are the solution but notice how all of them are an investment into the future that will have lasting sustainable behavioral changes. Simply moving from consumption products to another consumption product is just pushing out the mess into the future.

Uhm, first of all, IRA already does all that. It doesn't just give tax credits for EVs, it funds renewable energy, clean manufacturing and public transport

That said, be aware that transportation makes up for the largest sector of US emissions. And most of it is private cars. Even worse, cars have local pollution as well which harms people at ground zero

So your logic of just putting funding in other sectors while ignoring the biggest sector makes little sense. On top of that be aware part of the point of these investments isn't just to reduce emission but encourage local manufacturing and building local supply chains. Effectively, it isn't just emissions but national security

[NikoB]

electric car buyers thought they would pay the same vehicle taxes as ICE owners, but their cars are much heavier and cause much more damage to the road surface due to both weight and torque. As a result, in the USA, hahaha, they have already begun to tax the owners of electric cars many times more than the owners of cars with internal combustion engines. And this is just the beginning - as soon as more than 50% of the owners switch to electric cars, electricity prices will immediately increase 10 times, as previously predicted. =)

[A]

electric car buyers thought they would pay the same vehicle taxes as ICE owners, but their cars are much heavier and cause much more damage to the road surface due to both weight and torque. As a result, in the USA, hahaha, they have already begun to tax the owners of electric cars many times more than the owners of cars with internal combustion engines. And this is just the beginning - as soon as more than 50% of the owners switch to electric cars, electricity prices will immediately increase 10 times, as previously predicted. =)

Only some states EVs pay higher taxes. As for road damage, the amount is same as ICE cars. There isn't much weight difference between EVs and ICE cars when talking about cars in the same class. And as EVs move away from ICE platforms, they become lighter and lighter. On top of that, damage to the road is done per axle, EVs which have more even weight distribution actually cause less harm to the road.

Of course the reality is cars don't even do much damage to the road, most damage to the road is done by semi trucks

PS Adoption of EVs should actually help lower electricity prices. Of course that isn't to say those savings will be passed on to consumers, but the moment utilities try to raise prices is the day they will lose their customers. People will just go solar which is already an excellent deal with payback of 5-10 years in most part of US. Raising prices 10x would make payback a few months.

[NikoB]

We sang the same thing about LED light bulbs - once.

We moved on - electricity has increased in price by 2-3 times already. The stated resource of inclusions (and luminescence) on them turned out to be at least 5 times overestimated (elements of artificial aging began to be deliberately introduced into the light bulbs) and at the same time 99% of their buyers in the world lost the normal spectrum of light as on incandescent bulbs. RA index is worse than 80%, especially for the red spectrum.

If now when a people turns on an ordinary incandescent light bulb - they gets a shock - such a thick "red" light comes from them, which no one noticed before.

People voluntarily agreed to spoil their eyes and the autonomic nervous system with a bad spectrum, plus they were deceived with a lamp resource at times.

The same will be 100% with electric vehicles - as soon as they become the majority on the roads, the costs for them will become not less per year, but more at times.

Do you want to argue with me for the future? =)

[NikoB]

A, do you really believe that slave owners will let you breathe easier with less tribute in the future? Are you really that naive? ))

[A]

We sang the same thing about LED light bulbs - once.

Not sure about you but LED lighting saved me quite a bit of cost. Not just on electricity but replacement. I've only had 2 LED bulbs fail on me during last 15 years. I had to replace incardescent bulbs every 6 months to a year. The hassle alone was a saver

We moved on - electricity has increased in price by 2-3 times already.

While in 2001 electricity was 7.21 cents and in 2021 it was 11.10 cents. When you factor in inflation that 7.21 becomes 11.38 cents. Aka, electricity prices have pretty much stayed the same

The stated resource of inclusions (and luminescence) on them turned out to be at least 5 times overestimated (elements of artificial aging began to be deliberately introduced into the light bulbs) and at the same time 99% of their buyers in the world lost the normal spectrum of light as on incandescent bulbs. RA index is worse than 80%, especially for the red spectrum.

Maybe you should stop buying on ebay? All my LEDs other than shop ones are 95%+ CRI

If now when a people turns on an ordinary incandescent light bulb - they gets a shock - such a thick "red" light comes from them, which no one noticed before.

What? The so called "red light" you speak of is due to incandescent bulbs being 2700k-3000k (warm) instead of 5000k (daylight). I use daylight LEDs in work places/kitchen and warm in bedrooms. They even dim to red light. Just buy whatever temperature LED bulb you want.

People voluntarily agreed to spoil their eyes and the autonomic nervous system with a bad spectrum, plus they were deceived with a lamp resource at times.

What in the world is "bad spectrum"?

The same will be 100% with electric vehicles - as soon as they become the majority on the roads, the costs for them will become not less per year, but more at times.

Do you want to argue with me for the future? =)

EVs are already cheaper to fuel and maintain, and they will be cheaper to produce once economies of scale set in. As for whether these savings will go back to the consumer, that is up for debate. But you make it sound like ICE cars are immune to rising costs. Personally, if I had to choose I'd choose EVs for the fresher air. I don't know about you but I like my non-polluted. EVs also are safer too

[NikoB]

Not sure about you but LED lighting saved me quite a bit of cost. Not just on electricity but replacement. I've only had 2 LED bulbs fail on me during last 15 years. I had to replace incardescent bulbs every 6 months to a year. The hassle alone was a saver

My LED lamps fail on average after 2-2.5 years. Incandescent lamps every 1.5 years early. The price of incandescent lamps is 10 times lower for CRI 80% and in x60-80 for CRI 95%+...
Manufacturers usually declare 50000 minimum switch off/on and 20000+ hours of  work. In reality, even 1/3 does not work, and more often 1/5 vs declaration in datasheet.

Moreover, when analyzing the lamps, it is clear that they deliberately introduce elements of artificial aging so that people come for new ones. And the guarantee is a maximum of 2 years, i.e. everything is calculated so that after the end of the warranty they burn out within six months.

So you're just lying, once again.

While in 2001 electricity was 7.21 cents and in 2021 it was 11.10 cents. When you factor in inflation that 7.21 becomes 11.38 cents. Aka, electricity prices have pretty much stayed the same

There are no such prices, prices have increased by 2.5-3 times in $.

Maybe you should stop buying on ebay? All my LEDs other than shop ones are 95%+ CRI

I've never bought LED bulbs from eBay/Ali/Amazon - I'm not stupid to buy bulbs without a local warranty. Only in local shops. Lamps with 95% CRI cost 3-4 times more than those that 80% and 99% of the world's population buy lamps with 80%, so they are several times cheaper. And lamps with 95% CRI, especially with cheap electricity, never pay off and burn out almost the same as cheap ones in 3-3.5 years maximum. Those  your statement is pure demagoguery in favor of the rich.

Personally, if I had to choose I'd choose EVs for the fresher air. I don't know about you but I like my non-polluted. EVs also are safer too

Of course, residents of the rich countries of the West are cynically choosing electric cars, which dramatically improve the environment in their cities. But this does not improve the overall ecology of the planet, because. Batteries are created and recycled elsewhere. The selfish attitude of Westerners to this topic is obvious.

In a cold climate, they never compete with internal combustion engines and diesel engines.

I understand the reasons for this trend for cities, but in general they worsen the ecology of the planet, and do not improve, as much as the Westerners would not like.

As it is now, almost everything is produced in China, where the air is terribly dirty in industrial zones and workers are 3-5 times cheaper than workers in Western countries. If, however, the conditions and systems of purification are equalized, Westerners will immediately receive an increase in the cost of goods in the same proportion, if not more, and because of the transport shoulder, moreover.

Thus, the selfish West basks in credit with the most "advanced" gadgets and goods (lives in debt, the ceiling of which was again cynically raised under the show of clowns in the US Congress) for not earned money, but the people of Asia because of the totalitarian regime and corrupt authorities, who initially in collusion with the capitalists of the West-suffer to the fullest from the terrible environment and poverty. Western countries cynically declare that this is a problem of the population of these countries, but at the same time they allow their powerful strata and corrupt officials, murderers, thieves, executioners, to calmly bask in the resorts of the West, transfer assets and their broods there, thereby in reality encouraging the totalitarian and corrupt regimes all over the planet to their advantage and their capital. Blood money is more important than conscience and decency for the majority of Western society. What became finally visible even to the last idiot after what happened in 2022.

Therefore, the Western world is hated by most of humanity - for obvious duplicity. Despite the technical/scientific achievements of a small part of its advanced inhabitants (who really deserve respect). And after 2020 and especially 2022, hatred has become absolute (and just), against the backdrop of the monstrous duplicity of their authorities and most of the population.

[A]

My LED lamps fail on average after 2-2.5 years. Incandescent lamps every 1.5 years early. The price of incandescent lamps is 10 times lower for CRI 80% and in x60-80 for CRI 95%+...
Manufacturers usually declare 50000 minimum switch off/on and 20000+ hours of  work. In reality, even 1/3 does not work, and more often 1/5 vs declaration in datasheet.

Moreover, when analyzing the lamps, it is clear that they deliberately introduce elements of artificial aging so that people come for new ones. And the guarantee is a maximum of 2 years, i.e. everything is calculated so that after the end of the warranty they burn out within six months.

So you're just lying, once again.

Then there must be something wrong with your electrical service. Again, I've hardly had any fail and most have been up there over 10 years.

Currently the price of LEDs is pretty much same as incandescent cost, at best 2 times more

Since you in the other thread quoted euros, my guess you live in Europe, while I live in US. So before making statements of lying, ever consider the possibility that things are different where I live?

But most of your threads, you've always assumed the world revolves around you where no one can possibily have different opinions than you nor different situations

There are no such prices, prices have increased by 2.5-3 times in $.

I literally went to check average price of electricity across all sectors. It seems lower because commercial and industrial often pay lower rates than residential.

If I were to count residential, 2001 would be 8.58 (13.54 with inflation) and 2021 would be 13.66

I've never bought LED bulbs from eBay/Ali/Amazon - I'm not stupid to buy bulbs without a local warranty. Only in local shops. Lamps with 95% CRI cost 3-4 times more than those that 80% and 99% of the world's population buy lamps with 80%, so they are several times cheaper. And lamps with 95% CRI, especially with cheap electricity, never pay off and burn out almost the same as cheap ones in 3-3.5 years maximum. Those  your statement is pure demagoguery in favor of the rich.

I haven't bought an 80% one in a long time, last purchase was 90% CRI, I bought 6 of them for $2 at costco for a deal. Since LEDs last so long, I just buy them when they have a deal.

Of course, residents of the rich countries of the West are cynically choosing electric cars, which dramatically improve the environment in their cities. But this does not improve the overall ecology of the planet, because. Batteries are created and recycled elsewhere. The selfish attitude of Westerners to this topic is obvious.

Not sure where you get your nonsense, EV batteries are recycled in the west. And the country that buys the most EVs isn't the west but China who buys as much EVs as the whole world combined.

In a cold climate, they never compete with internal combustion engines and diesel engines.

Highest per capita for EVs is Norway where around 90% of new cars sold are EVs. They do just fine in cold  climates

I understand the reasons for this trend for cities, but in general they worsen the ecology of the planet, and do not improve, as much as the Westerners would not like.

Worsen the ecology how, do explain.

As it is now, almost everything is produced in China, where the air is terribly dirty in industrial zones and workers are 3-5 times cheaper than workers in Western countries. If, however, the conditions and systems of purification are equalized, Westerners will immediately receive an increase in the cost of goods in the same proportion, if not more, and because of the transport shoulder, moreover.

Thus, the selfish West basks in credit with the most "advanced" gadgets and goods (lives in debt, the ceiling of which was again cynically raised under the show of clowns in the US Congress) for not earned money, but the people of Asia because of the totalitarian regime and corrupt authorities, who initially in collusion with the capitalists of the West-suffer to the fullest from the terrible environment and poverty. Western countries cynically declare that this is a problem of the population of these countries, but at the same time they allow their powerful strata and corrupt officials, murderers, thieves, executioners, to calmly bask in the resorts of the West, transfer assets and their broods there, thereby in reality encouraging the totalitarian and corrupt regimes all over the planet to their advantage and their capital. Blood money is more important than conscience and decency for the majority of Western society. What became finally visible even to the last idiot after what happened in 2022.

Therefore, the Western world is hated by most of humanity - for obvious duplicity. Despite the technical/scientific achievements of a small part of its advanced inhabitants (who really deserve respect). And after 2020 and especially 2022, hatred has become absolute (and just), against the backdrop of the monstrous duplicity of their authorities and most of the population.

I am not sure where you are trying to get and how it relates to EVs. Most EV batteries in US are made in US. At best the mining may come from other countries but not manufacturing. And with the IRA this is even more so as to get the EV tax credits the car and battery must have a certain % domestic content. Not just manufacturing but mining and processing too.

China does produce a lot of batteries and EVs, but most of those are for their own market.

[NikoB]

Then there must be something wrong with your electrical service.

225-245V.

Currently the price of LEDs is pretty much same as incandescent cost, at best 2 times more

And now you are giving away the situation in the main country of the world (which really won the Second World War and the Cold War due to the intelligence and cunning of those generations, but you no longer have the same new ones in terms of level), which lives at someone else's expense on credit (i.e. .incomes of the population are 2-2.5 times higher than they should be in terms of their real productivity due to credit pumping of the entire economy with printed candy wrappers and seigniorage of the dollar as the international main settlement currency, fortunately - it begins to lose its role in the world and soon you will have to tighten your belts ) for the total.

In my country the price difference is 8-10 times between incandescent and LED with 80% CRI. Lamps with 95% cost another 4-6 times more. Their reliability is written by me above. They just don't pay off before they burn out due to the artificial aging elements embedded in them.

If I were to count residential, 2001 would be 8.58 (13.54 with inflation) and 2021 would be 13.66

Read above.

I bought 6 of them for $2 at costco for a deal.

We have never had and never will have such prices, they are 4-5 times higher.

Not sure where you get your nonsense, EV batteries are recycled in the west. And the country that buys the most EVs isn't the west but China who buys as much EVs as the whole world combined.

You are lying, most of the dirty industries of the West are concentrated in third world countries. And it's done on purpose.

Highest per capita for EVs is Norway where around 90% of new cars sold are EVs. They do just fine in cold  climates

1. They don't have a cold climate. The cold climate is where it is stable in winter -10C and below.
2. For people with such incomes, the increased maintenance costs of batteries that work for increased wear and tear for the sake of heating are simply nothing compared to incomes in third world countries - where electric vehicles could really improve the environment by orders of magnitude. But they are not available to their residents, neither in price nor in the price of service.

Those. I proved once again that you are engaged in demagoguery in favor of the rich.

Worsen the ecology how, do explain.

The cost of creation (in terms of climate impact and in energy resources) and disposal is much worse than for cars with internal combustion engines / diesel engines.

At best the mining may come from other countries but not manufacturing

Yes, Americans leave the dirtiest and least environmentally friendly in the third world countries, thanks to bribery, corruption and the promotion of prosperity for the families of local kleptocracies in the US and the EU.

Even now, when there is a war in Ukraine and every day hundreds of Ukrainians are killed, children, wives, lovers, parents, relatives of the direct beneficiaries of the Putin regime quietly ride and relax in Europe and the USA, I constantly publish in "Instgrams" how cheerful and carefree vacation. And EU/US officials deliberately do not let real fighters against bloody totalitarian regimes, and sometimes they meanly deport (as was the case with a man from Chechnya, who was expelled from France and was killed in Chechnya) to Russia/Belarus/China and etc. (remember, at least " police stations" of China in the EU/US), where they are simply killed. The collusion between the powerful kleptocracies of the West and totalitarian regimes is obvious to anyone in 2023. Especially after 2022 with the "covid" scam and from 2022 even to complete idiots, everything has become so obvious and lies in the palm of your hand if at least a couple of convolutions work in brain.

Recently, despite all the EU sanctions, the Russian Minister of Energy (who directly provides production and uninterrupted profits for the war machine) quietly had fun in Vienna, formally arriving at an OPEC meeting, which has nothing to do with Europe, on a government aircraft of the Russian Federation, which are formally banned flights to the EU and USA. At the same time, by the way, the West pretends that everything is fine when Asian / Eastern airlines fly to them through Russia. Chinese, Indian. It got to the point recently that your American airlines demanded that the authorities drastically increase fees from these companies in order to level the playing field, because they have to fly past Russia, which occupies 1/5 of the land on Earth.

I cited all this on purpose to show the degree of the moral decline of the West as a whole, even against the political and moral background. And production and business have never bothered with this. And now they don't bother, continuing to work in Russia, China and a bunch of totalitarian countries, as if nothing had happened. Blood money doesn't smell, right? Profit is more important...

Why do they need dirty and more expensive production in the US / EU, if they can continue to keep them in countries that are cheap in labor force and with primitive environmental laws, giving bribes?

[NikoB]

This is what awaits American workers in a new job, if the American layman still wants to get cheap chips... fortune.com/2023/06/03/tsmc-arizona-plant-jobs-salary-culture-hiring/

The situation is approximately the same, only much worse, including the exploitation of child labor in totalitarian China. In India, Vietnam, Philippines, etc.

Everything so that A can buy lamps with CRI 95% for $2 at Costo, when the rest of the world is forced to buy them for $8-10 with a minimum guarantee of 1-2 years...