Telegram could be banned all over the European Union

[Codrut Nistor]

I like how anti-vaxxers got roped in with pedophiles and drug dealers.  What is wrong with you people lol

This is how the authorities depict the "extremist" crowd when enforcing censorship these days, I am just painting the landscape...

[_MT_]

In general, I believe that you want to keep "extremists" where you can see them. Suppression only fuels them and pushes them underground, where they're harder to track. It will always come back to bite you. As the expression says, a dog that barks doesn't bite. It's often the case that people confuse a symptom with a problem. For example, "hate speech" can be very hollow. A symptom of a problem that is unpleasant but not dangerous in itself. If you try to remove the symptom instead of the problem, the next symptom might be a lot worse.

[_MT_]

Also, since when is anti-vax an extremist movement? Since COVID? Because that's an entirely different topic due to how COVID vaccines function compared to other vaccines.

Ever since vaccines proved themselves as an invaluable tool in controlling all sorts of diseases? It's just a lot more acute now given how contagious SARS-CoV-2 is and the sheer amount of damage it can cause (and has caused), to economy, health and society. Previously, when someone refused vaccine in an otherwise well vaccinated society, not much happened. Unless they travelled abroad to a less vaccinated region and brought back a souvenir. People are forgetting just how much of a difference vaccines made. How many lives were saved and how many lives were improved. Frankly, I was fully expecting vaccination to be mandatory once fully approved all the way back in spring 2020. Because an infected person is a danger to others and this thing was so contagious, individual rights take a back seat. I thought the proclamations that it will never be mandatory were naïve. It seemed unlikely we would hit estimated targets solely through voluntary vaccination. And that was the original virus that was nothing compared to delta (on the other hand, the first vaccine turned out much better than originally expected). That's the thing. You have a right to risk your own life (up to a point after which your sanity will be questioned). You have no right to risk the lives of others. That's how freedom works. Your freedom ends where another person's freedom starts. A compromise has to be found when there is a conflict. A compromise means that you have to give something up. You won't get all of what you want. Again, elementary thing that escapes some people.

Consider the word. An extreme position is no less extreme just because it happens to be at the harmless or positive side of a scale. Refusing to eat meat whatsoever is an extreme position. Refusing violence unconditionally is extreme. Protecting the environment at all cost is extreme. You might think that those things are good but that makes them no less extreme. You know, it did take me a while to realize that pacifism is a form of extremism. I thought it was naïve and unworkable (they can't deal with aggressors and those will always exist), but I didn't think of it as extremism. Because pacifism has positive connotations for me while extremism is the opposite. Sometimes, you need to recalibrate yourself.

You know, either you trust bodies like EMA to do their job or you don't. If you don't trust authorities, if you don't believe that there are people who know a lot more about the subject, if you can't read a study and grasp the gist of it, then you've got a problem. There are conventional vaccines if you don't trust the new-fangled stuff. Democracy (and market as well) hinges on people being able to make good decisions. It can tolerate a few people making bad decisions but not huge numbers. If you want a good democracy, you need to ensure that people are equipped to make good decisions. When people are pushed, when people are scared, scary things come out of the woodwork.

[_MT_]

In the last two decades, most European governments have lost one essential asset that makes a country strong - TRUST. I've seen how polls have been evolving here in the last decades, I've seen the general opinion being shifted in other countries as well. Europe seems to be headed towards anarchy and the rate keeps accelerating. At least this is how I see it.

That would be only natural. It's called entropy. Universe tends towards disorder. The real problem is the ability of people to make heads and tails of a situation. Without this ability, what do you trust? As I wrote, democracy is all about making decisions. And that is all about information. Where do you get information, how do you verify it? How can you know what is true and what isn't. It actually takes substantial brainpower and you might not like the answer (that you sometimes can't know). Working democracy is actually hard, not easy. It's one of the most demanding systems of governance as we are all collectively responsible. Everything is our fault as we make collective decisions. Yet you as an individual are just one voice. It doesn't solve our weaknesses or vices, it exposes them. In a way, life under a totalitarian regime is so much simpler. There are things that you can't but on the other hand, you don't have to think much and you don't have much responsibility.

[LOL]

To the liberals, anyone right of Stalin is a 'dangerous far right' individual. And 'extremist'.

See how they had demonized Germany's AfD, Hungary's Orban, Poland's Duda, Brazil's Bolsonaro, Trump etc?

Those godless 21st century Bolsheviks in the mainstream media and the rhetoric from 'progressive' politicians aren't fooling me.

[morbido]

Sad to see western countries justifying censorship for so called anti-vaxxer extremists. I am pro covid vaccine and have taken covid vaccine but I don't think anti vaxxers are "extremists". In the past we outside the west used to look up to western countries for the freedom their citizens enjoyed. But slowly they are just censoring, de-platforming, firing people for smallest of wrong thinking. Sad.

[VaruLV]

The problem with Telegram is that it's, while unofficially, is under Soviet Russias Putins umbrella, so he can, if he pleases so, get backdoor access when he needs it.

[Meniz]

Funny how they are happy to ban Telegram or any free speech platform for supposed extremism, while happily promote real terrorist like ISIS on FB, Tw, YT, by boosting their reach or CNN making actual interview with terrorists, not to mention the fact that 60% of pedo traffic goes through FB and it's messenger.   ...but of course they won't ban their own  :)

[Codrut Nistor]

The problem with Telegram is that it's, while unofficially, is under Soviet Russias Putins umbrella, so he can, if he pleases so, get backdoor access when he needs it.

It's a very interesting point of view, but I have to disagree. Do you have any source for this information? Telegram's founder bailed out of Russia BEFORE starting it. He was behind VK.com, and that's what Putin allegedly managed to take away from him and get in control of, via third parties, of course.

[BaimeLT]

Yea that's one interesting take indeed. Lost me at Soviet Russia, in 2022, though.
Hitting Telegram with a state-wide bonk was a bad thing to do when the ruskis did it. Not anymore is it...
As for the extremists, paedos and pirates, I don't have the data on when the majority of those hopped on but I wouldn't imagine it happened all that recently. It's just that, everyone did now. Groups of pretty much all views have embraced it for its very nature (privacy). People who are, be frank, very supportive of the Russian state the way it is now. And the opponents, that've been there for ages. And numerous groups that don't give a flying duck about Russia. No horse in the race. I mean... maybe the progressives are more hesitant to join. Who'd join a platform made by some Ivan from Soviet Russia...

[VaruLV]

The problem with Telegram is that it's, while unofficially, is under Soviet Russias Putins umbrella, so he can, if he pleases so, get backdoor access when he needs it.

It's a very interesting point of view, but I have to disagree. Do you have any source for this information? Telegram's founder bailed out of Russia BEFORE starting it. He was behind VK.com, and that's what Putin allegedly managed to take away from him and get in control of, via third parties, of course.

Russia has got pretty tight grip on their expats and this case is no exclusion, Id be very cautious with everything IT that comes from Russia even if by so called "opposition" or modern digital dissidents.

Yea that's one interesting take indeed. Lost me at Soviet Russia, in 2022, though.
Hitting Telegram with a state-wide bonk was a bad thing to do when the ruskis did it. Not anymore is it...
As for the extremists, paedos and pirates, I don't have the data on when the majority of those hopped on but I wouldn't imagine it happened all that recently. It's just that, everyone did now. Groups of pretty much all views have embraced it for its very nature (privacy). People who are, be frank, very supportive of the Russian state the way it is now. And the opponents, that've been there for ages. And numerous groups that don't give a flying duck about Russia. No horse in the race. I mean... maybe the progressives are more hesitant to join. Who'd join a platform made by some Ivan from Soviet Russia...

Apparently you either dont know todays Russia and its history well enough or are simply naive about it. Its back on the track of USSR style governance and affairs with other countries, Russias leaders even dont hide their simpathies for USSR and believe it was one of the greatest geopolitical tragedies of modern times.
The point is, Russia is de facto totalitarian state with iron grip on all of its industries and with wide and powerful network of expats and shills abroad.

[VaruLV]

Also, since when is anti-vax an extremist movement? Since COVID? Because that's an entirely different topic due to how COVID vaccines function compared to other vaccines.

Ever since vaccines proved themselves as an invaluable tool in controlling all sorts of diseases? It's just a lot more acute now given how contagious SARS-CoV-2 is and the sheer amount of damage it can cause (and has caused), to economy, health and society. Previously, when someone refused vaccine in an otherwise well vaccinated society, not much happened. Unless they travelled abroad to a less vaccinated region and brought back a souvenir. People are forgetting just how much of a difference vaccines made. How many lives were saved and how many lives were improved. Frankly, I was fully expecting vaccination to be mandatory once fully approved all the way back in spring 2020. Because an infected person is a danger to others and this thing was so contagious, individual rights take a back seat. I thought the proclamations that it will never be mandatory were naïve. It seemed unlikely we would hit estimated targets solely through voluntary vaccination. And that was the original virus that was nothing compared to delta (on the other hand, the first vaccine turned out much better than originally expected). That's the thing. You have a right to risk your own life (up to a point after which your sanity will be questioned). You have no right to risk the lives of others. That's how freedom works. Your freedom ends where another person's freedom starts. A compromise has to be found when there is a conflict. A compromise means that you have to give something up. You won't get all of what you want. Again, elementary thing that escapes some people.

Consider the word. An extreme position is no less extreme just because it happens to be at the harmless or positive side of a scale. Refusing to eat meat whatsoever is an extreme position. Refusing violence unconditionally is extreme. Protecting the environment at all cost is extreme. You might think that those things are good but that makes them no less extreme. You know, it did take me a while to realize that pacifism is a form of extremism. I thought it was naïve and unworkable (they can't deal with aggressors and those will always exist), but I didn't think of it as extremism. Because pacifism has positive connotations for me while extremism is the opposite. Sometimes, you need to recalibrate yourself.

You know, either you trust bodies like EMA to do their job or you don't. If you don't trust authorities, if you don't believe that there are people who know a lot more about the subject, if you can't read a study and grasp the gist of it, then you've got a problem. There are conventional vaccines if you don't trust the new-fangled stuff. Democracy (and market as well) hinges on people being able to make good decisions. It can tolerate a few people making bad decisions but not huge numbers. If you want a good democracy, you need to ensure that people are equipped to make good decisions. When people are pushed, when people are scared, scary things come out of the woodwork.

Yeah, except that covid vaccines dont work the way, what I presume to be, your beloved vaccines work. Its a different virus and with different vaccines than for other diseases that had been erradicated by the help of vaccines.
All the date thus far shows that neither can Covid be erradicated with the help of vaccines, nor does they stop the spread of it.
A good, working vaccine is one you get boosted once in some 10 years, if boosted at all, not the one that doesnt work on current Omicron variant and, according to some loonatics, should be administered in the form of boosters every 4-9 months, depending on loonatic subscribing such dosage.
All vaccines are not the same, they dont work the same and neither are the viruses the same, so, please, dont spread this misinformation that has no base in facts about C19 vaccines being as efficient as those that have saved millions and stopped diseases in their tracks, because there is no such vaccine for C19 and there might never be.

[_MT_]

Yeah, except that covid vaccines dont work the way, what I presume to be, your beloved vaccines work. Its a different virus and with different vaccines than for other diseases that had been erradicated by the help of vaccines.
All the date thus far shows that neither can Covid be erradicated with the help of vaccines, nor does they stop the spread of it.
A good, working vaccine is one you get boosted once in some 10 years, if boosted at all, not the one that doesnt work on current Omicron variant and, according to some loonatics, should be administered in the form of boosters every 4-9 months, depending on loonatic subscribing such dosage.
All vaccines are not the same, they dont work the same and neither are the viruses the same, so, please, dont spread this misinformation that has no base in facts about C19 vaccines being as efficient as those that have saved millions and stopped diseases in their tracks, because there is no such vaccine for C19 and there might never be.

I wouldn't say I love vaccines. In general, I avoid taking drugs unless actually needed. I don't pop pills to make myself happy or make pain go away. Actually, since I have received very painful injections as a child, I very much feared needles. However, I do consider them the lesser evil.

As far as I know, there is a whole virus SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, for example. Hardly a new technology. There is also a protein subunit vaccine, if I remember correctly, another type considered proven (used, for example, in hepatitis B vaccine). Personally, I went for the new stuff - mRNA. Very interesting technology. We're talking about so called anti-waxxers. That's not limited to SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. And you don't have to practically eradicate a virus or a disease to prove that a vaccine is safe. That's what it's about - how much safer is the vaccine compared to the virus, accounting for the likelihood of encountering it. More and more people nowadays refuse vaccination in general. They don't want their new-borns to be vaccinated. And it's an ongoing debate whether a parent should be allowed to make that decision, to take such a risk with child's life. We shouldn't forget that vaccines did a lot of good. That they do have a pretty good track record. How many vaccines can you name that went to market and were subsequently pulled because of harmful side effects? How many people were affected? Especially in more recent times in developed countries. I'm more worried about antibiotics use. I'm not afraid of antibiotics, I fear losing them because some idiots pop them like candy, feed them to healthy animals and prescribe them needlessly. I trust EMA to do their job. This is, after all, why we want to have institutions that can resist political pressure.

It's a sneaky little bugger, isn't it. Fortunately, it's not that deadly. You have to realize that the vaccines we have were made against the original. It's a little miracle they still work at all. And a testament to how good they were. Also, they were not designed to stop transmission (you'd probably need a vaccine that gets sprayed up your nose rather than injected into a muscle, given that it's a corona virus). We just hoped they would help. And they do. It would have been so much worse without them. We hoped protection would last at least 12 months and it might, against the original. Because it's fighting a virus it wasn't designed for, we need higher antibody counts. And older people do have weaker response. It spreads very fast which makes fighting it difficult. Coincidentally, I'm due for a booster tomorrow. If I have to take another booster six months from now, I will. Hopefully, it will be an updated version. The problem isn't the vaccine, the vaccine is surprisingly good, it's the virus. What else can we do? To me, this is a situation that needs solving. I can't sit on my hands. Vaccine is here, it's my duty to take it and do my tiny little part. It's nothing compared to volunteering in hospitals or care homes. Funny thing is that I happen to be a person who hates being told what to do and having to do things. I appreciate that I can make the decision myself. I just can't figure out a better plan. It matters not whether I like it.

For example, 15 years ago, encephalitis vaccine required boosters every three years. Now, it's five years (well, I think it's four to six). That doesn't mean it can't last longer. Boosters are typically given without performing an antibody test. Often, such a test wouldn't be economical. You've got to account for people with weaker immune response. Vaccines get better, our understanding of required antibody level improves as well. I went without a booster for 12 years and still had sufficient antibody count. That doesn't mean everybody would. Who knows where it will be in 30 years. One challenge with SARS-CoV-2 is that we don't really know where the protection level is (at least as far as I know). It takes time to learn these things. Some viruses are harder to vaccinate against. HIV is an example. And HIV vaccine research was of huge help in the development of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines. We have had vaccine against influenza for a while now and it also wasn't eradicated and requires shots every year. That's life.

[Sarahee1]

It's high time to choose Utopia Ecosystem, for safety and anonymity! The best p2p all in one platform and very easy to use! ;)

[Codrut Nistor]

Care to tell us more about it or should I just push your message in the spam bin, @Sarahee1?