X1 Carbon Gen 9: Lenovo has to be careful with the ThinkPad keyboard

[_MT_]

The home and end keys, though, I use a lot, and they required the use of the Fn key on my Surface, and I hated, hated, hated it. I never, ever want them to not be standalone keys again.

One thing I hate about the Surface Laptop keyboard is that F keys are via function but when you engage Fn-lock, you get insert instead of delete. I use F keys a lot. Just a few of them but a lot. Or the power button. It's nice that they placed delete as the right-most button. But some laptops have it the other way around. Home is just too far away to find without looking and the top row isn't grouped. Grouping of F keys allows you to find them by touch. That way, I can reliably hit F4 or F5 without looking. Really, useless crap. I want to strangle someone when I see it.

[vertigo]

That is understandable. The root of the problem is that the key is called Page Down instead of Next Page. The logic f.lux uses makes perfect sense when the keys are above each other. But not when they're are next to each other. They should offer an option of inverting it. I would suggest it to them. Since it's a common arrangement on laptops.

I'm specifically talking about function plus arrows. Nothing else. On a desktop keyboard, moving (from typing position) to cursor keys and moving to the block above them with home and end is very similar. But on laptops, with six row keyboards and since home and end are often in different places on different keyboards, I would really rather have them on left and right cursor keys with function. On old seven row laptop keyboards, I felt it was a little bit more awkward compared to a desktop, but the block was still there and the keys were easy enough to find without looking. That's just not the case with a typical modern laptop keyboard. I'm so used to switching to cursor keys from typing and using them with shift (character selection), control (word skip) and control + shift (word selection) that it just feels very natural to use them with function as well (function for jumping and function + shift for selection). I have no problem hitting those combinations with my left hand.

Good points about the naming of the keys (prev/next page would make things much more logical) and seeing if they would enable swapping of the keys. I'm actually going to be making a couple other requests, so I'll have to add that, though I don't have much hope for any of them since, from what I can tell looking through the forum, most requests either aren't done or go entirely unanswered.

I'm sure you've considered it, and maybe have already done it, but you should be able to get what you want through simple remapping. I've considered mapping home and end to the arrows myself, just because if I'm already there it could be a little easier than going to the top row, but I really can't see it making much difference for me. I just hate when that's all you get, home and end on the arrow keys (and typically page up/down as well), so you have no choice but to use the Fn key to use them. I have to have at least home and end as independent keys, and that's the sole reason I decided against getting the Zephyrus G14, which I was about to buy several months ago before realizing they left them out.

And yeah, the Surface keyboard is just terrible for so many reasons. Worst keyboard I've ever used by a long-shot. And the power button placement on some laptops (where delete should be; seriously, what kind of idiot...??) was the main deciding factor in not purchasing any of those. I sometimes wonder how people manage to stay employed with the decisions they make.

[_MT_]

I'm sure you've considered it, and maybe have already done it, but you should be able to get what you want through simple remapping. I've considered mapping home and end to the arrows myself, just because if I'm already there it could be a little easier than going to the top row, but I really can't see it making much difference for me. I just hate when that's all you get, home and end on the arrow keys (and typically page up/down as well), so you have no choice but to use the Fn key to use them. I have to have at least home and end as independent keys, and that's the sole reason I decided against getting the Zephyrus G14, which I was about to buy several months ago before realizing they left them out.

... I sometimes wonder how people manage to stay employed with the decisions they make.

I wouldn't call it simple. Fn key isn't a normal modifier. You can't normally detect it. When you hit Fn + delete on a Surface Laptop, you simply see insert (assuming Fn lock off). Or am I missing something?

I just think it's better than having to deal with different placements on different laptops, some more stupid than others. It seems like a good compromise. If you don't have a good place for them, do it this way. I think it's intuitive, easy to get used to and not really much worse, if at all (as I wrote, we already use control and shift with them). Consider latest Dells that have home/ end on F11/ F12 IIRC. I don't use F11 or F12 that much but it means I have to choose between having F-keys and home/end without Fn. I can't have both (Surface has the same problem, only it's F9 and F10 IIRC). Just idiotic. And they started using that layout on Latitudes and Precisions as well. Whatever happened to full-size keyboards that could fit escape, 12 F-keys and three other keys in a row? 16 in total, with grouping to boot. On a six row keyboard, the three keys would be home, end and delete for me. As I wrote, I don't use page up/ down much at all, but I know others would be unhappy. Of course, it doesn't help when you fit a power button in there. Truly idiotic. I hope they have somehow accounted for hitting it by accident.

I know, tell me about it. It seems like most customers aren't that particular about such things. It's like people buy laptops but don't use keyboards. I don't get it. Why not get a tablet? Or perhaps they can't use a keyboard properly (typing with all fingers, without looking, etc.) so they don't perceive the damage done.

[vertigo]

I wouldn't call it simple. Fn key isn't a normal modifier. You can't normally detect it. When you hit Fn + delete on a Surface Laptop, you simply see insert (assuming Fn lock off). Or am I missing something?

I just think it's better than having to deal with different placements on different laptops, some more stupid than others. It seems like a good compromise. If you don't have a good place for them, do it this way. I think it's intuitive, easy to get used to and not really much worse, if at all (as I wrote, we already use control and shift with them). Consider latest Dells that have home/ end on F11/ F12 IIRC. I don't use F11 or F12 that much but it means I have to choose between having F-keys and home/end without Fn. I can't have both (Surface has the same problem, only it's F9 and F10 IIRC). Just idiotic. And they started using that layout on Latitudes and Precisions as well. Whatever happened to full-size keyboards that could fit escape, 12 F-keys and three other keys in a row? 16 in total, with grouping to boot. On a six row keyboard, the three keys would be home, end and delete for me. As I wrote, I don't use page up/ down much at all, but I know others would be unhappy. Of course, it doesn't help when you fit a power button in there. Truly idiotic. I hope they have somehow accounted for hitting it by accident.

I know, tell me about it. It seems like most customers aren't that particular about such things. It's like people buy laptops but don't use keyboards. I don't get it. Why not get a tablet? Or perhaps they can't use a keyboard properly (typing with all fingers, without looking, etc.) so they don't perceive the damage done.

True, I forgot about that, but you could use Ctrl and/or Alt and/or Shift. I get it, not the same, but at least it's an option. It would certainly make more sense for the manufacturers to just include the function and then people can use it or not. And this is an example of why they should make the Fn key nontransparent to the OS.

That's one of the things I love about the ThinkPad keyboards, is that they have not even 16, but 17 keys, with grouping even. Heck, they even managed to do that and make the escape and delete keys oversized. So I don't get why others can't seem to do the same. Same with why they can't seem to be capable of making the arrow keys full-sized.

I find that most people just aren't very demanding or picky about most things they buy, which is unfortunate and why manufacturers know they can get away with releasing half-***ed products. And most people don't use computers very heavily, mostly just doing web browsing with some typing for email and documents, but nothing too heavy. And so they don't really care. They care more about other features. And unfortunately with laptops, the options are much more limited than with desktops and there's a lot more compromise, so most people choose those other features over a quality keyboard, and so the crappy keyboards win out overall.

[João Fernandes]

I own a thinkpad X1 yoga Gen 4 and 5, mainly because of the typing experience. Keyboard typing experience is crucial when choosing a laptop. Please Lenovo don't ruin it!

[David Hernandez]

Definitely agree .. I have the X1 Carbon 6th gen and I loved the higher travel of those keys with the deeper indent and thicker keys. This 9th gen that I now own feels like a MacBook.

This is only my 2nd day using it but I did work on it yesterday for roughly 10 hours with lots of typing. I'll see if it grows on me.