Intel Tiger Lake Gen12 Xe iGPU offers significantly better performance than Ice Lake Gen11 at same TDP, finally surpassing Vega 8 in AMD Renoir

[Pablo240]

I was all about the Ryzen 4000 chips but the problem remains that they cannot be found in a premium ultrabook. The 4800u can't even be found here in the US yet. 

That's why I'll be waiting until the fall when we'll see XPS 2 in 1, Spectre, and Yoga lines updated with Tiger Lake.

[Valantar]

I was all about the Ryzen 4000 chips but the problem remains that they cannot be found in a premium ultrabook. The 4800u can't even be found here in the US yet. 

That's why I'll be waiting until the fall when we'll see XPS 2 in 1, Spectre, and Yoga lines updated with Tiger Lake.

It seems Covid-19 hit the Renoir launch hard - the Lenovo Yoga 7 Pro was supposed to launch in February with the 4800U and LPDDR4X, but it's still MIA. There's even evidence that Notebookcheck had one in for testing at one point, though it seems Lenovo has pulled back the launch (and thus review embargoes) for some reason.

1. 3dmark is garbage. misleading af. stop using it.
2. tdp is also garbage. useless parameter for the consumers. misleading af. stop using it.
..
how about cs:go, dota, rocket league and measure consumption?

You must be  5 years old to not know those games run on a potato, why not at Fortnite too .
Your opinion is garbage and all you do is bich about everything , go back to school and get educated your opinion is garbage like your attitude.

I very rarely agree with WB on anything at all, but in this regard both points are right. Have you tried playing Rocket League on an UHD 620? It's garbage. So no, those games don't run on a potato. And even for something old like CS:GO there are big differences in smoothness and frame time consistency even if even low end GPUs can hit high frame rates. So testing for games that are actually relevant use cases for the product at hand makes a lot of sense, even if some "aspirational" tests should of course also be included. And when attempting to compare Intel IGPUs to anything else, 3Dmark is indeed entirely useless simply due to it being one of the very few well optimized titles in Intel's driver. Performance in it is thus not representative of other workloads.

Also, why resort to that kind of language? It certainly doesn't make you look any more mature than the person you're addressing...

[A]

Not really. Tigerlake laptops launch in September. Zen 3 laptops are at least 1 year away. So tigerlake will compete with Renoir.

I was all about the Ryzen 4000 chips but the problem remains that they cannot be found in a premium ultrabook. The 4800u can't even be found here in the US yet. 

That's why I'll be waiting until the fall when we'll see XPS 2 in 1, Spectre, and Yoga lines updated with Tiger Lake.

Tigerlake is being released in September but first laptops come in October. Ryzen 5000 mobile is coming in 2021Q1, aka, next quarter.

Which means tigerlake will only compete with Ryzen 4000 for a few months before it faces Ryzen 5000.

So anyone who makes the notion of "hey I'll wait 5 months for tigerlake", should be prepared for Ryzen 5000 in 3-4 months after.

It's an endless game of cat and mouse.

Not to mention, from what was said tigerlake sacrifices cpu for gpu. And for a marginal improvement plus the new gpu drivers are more than likely gonna cause issues. I wouldn't say tigerlake is a good bet.

[Pablo240]

Not really. Tigerlake laptops launch in September. Zen 3 laptops are at least 1 year away. So tigerlake will compete with Renoir.

I was all about the Ryzen 4000 chips but the problem remains that they cannot be found in a premium ultrabook. The 4800u can't even be found here in the US yet. 

That's why I'll be waiting until the fall when we'll see XPS 2 in 1, Spectre, and Yoga lines updated with Tiger Lake.

Tigerlake is being released in September but first laptops come in October. Ryzen 5000 mobile is coming in 2021Q1, aka, next quarter.

Which means tigerlake will only compete with Ryzen 4000 for a few months before it faces Ryzen 5000.

So anyone who makes the notion of "hey I'll wait 5 months for tigerlake", should be prepared for Ryzen 5000 in 3-4 months after.

It's an endless game of cat and mouse.

Not to mention, from what was said tigerlake sacrifices cpu for gpu. And for a marginal improvement plus the new gpu drivers are more than likely gonna cause issues. I wouldn't say tigerlake is a good bet.

I feel like you're missing my point, it's not about AMD vs Intel or waiting for the next best thing.  It's  about the hardware. I'd gladly purchase a high end ultrabook right now with a 4800u.  It doesn't exist and I don't anticipate it ever will. 

I'm looking for a high end ultrabook with a great screen, build quality, and ideally a 2 in 1.  Something like the XPS 13 2 in 1 or Spectre x360 13 as I mentioned.  AMD killed it with the Ryzen 4000u series but unfortunately OEMs are only using them in mid range machines, often limiting them to 8 GB ram.  Sure, Ryzen 5000 will come out a few months after Tiger lake, but it'll be a gamble whether or not they are used in a worthwhile laptop.  Tiger lake is a lock to be used in a laptop I actually want.

Everyone has different priorities, I'm just saying that the AMD options aren't there for me. I'm also more interested in GPU performance over CPU.

[Valantar]

Not really. Tigerlake laptops launch in September. Zen 3 laptops are at least 1 year away. So tigerlake will compete with Renoir.

I was all about the Ryzen 4000 chips but the problem remains that they cannot be found in a premium ultrabook. The 4800u can't even be found here in the US yet. 

That's why I'll be waiting until the fall when we'll see XPS 2 in 1, Spectre, and Yoga lines updated with Tiger Lake.

Tigerlake is being released in September but first laptops come in October. Ryzen 5000 mobile is coming in 2021Q1, aka, next quarter.

Which means tigerlake will only compete with Ryzen 4000 for a few months before it faces Ryzen 5000.

So anyone who makes the notion of "hey I'll wait 5 months for tigerlake", should be prepared for Ryzen 5000 in 3-4 months after.

It's an endless game of cat and mouse.

Not to mention, from what was said tigerlake sacrifices cpu for gpu. And for a marginal improvement plus the new gpu drivers are more than likely gonna cause issues. I wouldn't say tigerlake is a good bet.

I feel like you're missing my point, it's not about AMD vs Intel or waiting for the next best thing.  It's  about the hardware. I'd gladly purchase a high end ultrabook right now with a 4800u.  It doesn't exist and I don't anticipate it ever will. 

I'm looking for a high end ultrabook with a great screen, build quality, and ideally a 2 in 1.  Something like the XPS 13 2 in 1 or Spectre x360 13 as I mentioned.  AMD killed it with the Ryzen 4000u series but unfortunately OEMs are only using them in mid range machines, often limiting them to 8 GB ram.  Sure, Ryzen 5000 will come out a few months after Tiger lake, but it'll be a gamble whether or not they are used in a worthwhile laptop.  Tiger lake is a lock to be used in a laptop I actually want.

Everyone has different priorities, I'm just saying that the AMD options aren't there for me. I'm also more interested in GPU performance over CPU.

I think you would be interested in looking at the Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 once it actually shows up.

[sddddk]

oh, poor William. Learn English first, then talk adults...
(...)

The irony is strong here lol. Hate on his opinions all you want, I sure do, but do it in a civil manner and with arguments, not just personal attacks

[young william]

@Pablo240:

Tiger-Lake will change nothing. Intel has been taking graphics very seriously for almost a decade now. And they're still bad. Some are saying, this time will be different, but do keep in mind the current head of graphics at Intel (Raja Koduri) was the same guy who was responsible for the AMD Fury / Original Vega fiasco. He hyped those launches as well and we all know how that went down in history. And as A, has already pointed out, this is a completely new architecture so it'll be buggy. If you look at all the best architectures from Nvidia/AMD, they were all revised iterations, not 1st gen products. So if you take graphics seriously, Xe is not interesting at all.

I'm sure in a few years (2023), it'll become better but by then, so will arm gpu drivers. Apple will have long moved to arm by then and we will see more surface arm devices, probably start seeing more OEMs switch to arm by then too.

If you don't care about graphics at all, fair enough. But there are already many premium UHD 620 that've been widely available for several years now. And if you're not tied to windows, many premium ultra thin arm devices too.

Renoir and future AMD APU's may not be available now but people are excited for them because of the future. Prices of several 2k Ice Lake laptops have dropped almost half. Even if you don't care about AMD laptops, surely having cheaper Intel laptops can't be a bad thing?

Now if only we could have alternatives to Snapdragon, maybe phones and tablets would not be starting at 1k then...

[young william]

@Valantar:

I've not played Rocket League but you're better off getting something with a low end dGPU (mx450). This game is not that old, obtaining minimum 60 fps (@ 1080p medium) and it being consistent / never dropping below that is surprisingly difficult. Most of the time in games there will always be some place somewhere on the map, where it drops fps massively.

iGPU's will never give the same performance as low end dGPU. Even if they get close, there is always the price difference (2k Ice lake laptops vs $800 mx150/mx250 laptops)

The only reason I'm excited about future AMD APU's like Renoir is because the games I play are so old that they don't even run on dGPU. Nvidia Optimus forces them on iGPU. So just getting away from Optimus alone is enough for me. (But Intel iGPU still sucks for them, if you care for 1440p @ 144 hz)

Personally, I'd like to see better cooling in laptops by OEMs. We see all this innovation in cpu/gpu, but where is the innovation when it comes to thermals and noise? I get that in an ultra thin form factor, there's only so much you can do but I'd of thought we would have Vapor Chamber / Liquid cooling more mainstream by now. Also, progress in battery tech, are all the best batteries being sourced/patented by Tesla?

I don't even want an ultra thin or premium, if someone just made a 3:2 120 hz panel, that alone would be enough for me. How difficult can it be? How does Microsoft Surface line intend to keep with an iPad, when one is 60hz and other is 120hz? And where are all the 3:2 120 hz Thinkpads? Sick and tired of hearing, "business customers are not concerned" answer yet over the last decade all they've done on business laptops is make them thinner, lighter, removed legacy connections (ethernet,vga) and etc. If you're going to copy Apple, do it properly and fully please!

[Valantar]

@Valantar:

I've not played Rocket League but you're better off getting something with a low end dGPU (mx450). This game is not that old, obtaining minimum 60 fps (@ 1080p medium) and it being consistent / never dropping below that is surprisingly difficult. Most of the time in games there will always be some place somewhere on the map, where it drops fps massively.

iGPU's will never give the same performance as low end dGPU. Even if they get close, there is always the price difference (2k Ice lake laptops vs $800 mx150/mx250 laptops)

The only reason I'm excited about future AMD APU's like Renoir is because the games I play are so old that they don't even run on dGPU. Nvidia Optimus forces them on iGPU. So just getting away from Optimus alone is enough for me. (But Intel iGPU still sucks for them, if you care for 1440p @ 144 hz)

Personally, I'd like to see better cooling in laptops by OEMs. We see all this innovation in cpu/gpu, but where is the innovation when it comes to thermals and noise? I get that in an ultra thin form factor, there's only so much you can do but I'd of thought we would have Vapor Chamber / Liquid cooling more mainstream by now. Also, progress in battery tech, are all the best batteries being sourced/patented by Tesla?

I don't even want an ultra thin or premium, if someone just made a 3:2 120 hz panel, that alone would be enough for me. How difficult can it be? How does Microsoft Surface line intend to keep with an iPad, when one is 60hz and other is 120hz? And where are all the 3:2 120 hz Thinkpads? Sick and tired of hearing, "business customers are not concerned" answer yet over the last decade all they've done on business laptops is make them thinner, lighter, removed legacy connections (ethernet,vga) and etc. If you're going to copy Apple, do it properly and fully please!

I agree with you on the last paragraph, but not on anything above. If I wanted a gaming laptop, that would of course "solve" the problem of performance, but I don't want and can't use a gaming laptop, as they aren't portable enough for my needs and don't suit my use. I want a thin and light laptop with great battery life, enough CPU performance for some occasional photo and video editing, and enough GPU performance for some light gaming. Like you, ideally I would also want a 3:2 120Hz FreeSync display. While I could get most of those with a thin-and-light with, say, an MX350, that comes with its own drawbacks (software issues, juggling drivers, higher base power draw, smaller batteries or larger laptops due to motherboard area requirements, etc.). And if leaked 25W Renoir benchmarks pan out, a 4800U at 25W with LPDDR4x will deliver 95% of the performance of an Intel i7+MX350 setup, and significantly beat an MX250/MX330. All while consuming less power overall, having a much more powerful CPU, and fitting in a slimmer chassis. Which is why I would much rather have a powerful iGPU than a low-end dGPU: a monolithic approach is simply a better overall solution at these levels of performance and power draw.

[Pablo240]

@Pablo240:

Tiger-Lake will change nothing. Intel has been taking graphics very seriously for almost a decade now. And they're still bad. Some are saying, this time will be different, but do keep in mind the current head of graphics at Intel (Raja Koduri) was the same guy who was responsible for the AMD Fury / Original Vega fiasco. He hyped those launches as well and we all know how that went down in history. And as A, has already pointed out, this is a completely new architecture so it'll be buggy. If you look at all the best architectures from Nvidia/AMD, they were all revised iterations, not 1st gen products. So if you take graphics seriously, Xe is not interesting at all.

I'm sure in a few years (2023), it'll become better but by then, so will arm gpu drivers. Apple will have long moved to arm by then and we will see more surface arm devices, probably start seeing more OEMs switch to arm by then too.

If you don't care about graphics at all, fair enough. But there are already many premium UHD 620 that've been widely available for several years now. And if you're not tied to windows, many premium ultra thin arm devices too.

Renoir and future AMD APU's may not be available now but people are excited for them because of the future. Prices of several 2k Ice Lake laptops have dropped almost half. Even if you don't care about AMD laptops, surely having cheaper Intel laptops can't be a bad thing?

Now if only we could have alternatives to Snapdragon, maybe phones and tablets would not be starting at 1k then...

Perhaps I have a unique use case, but I want a sub 3 lb ultrabook, 2 in 1 with a great display. I'd like to do some light gaming on it, games like rocket league and fortnite as well as older titles. So when looking at the processor, GPU is the priority.  As I mentioned, these types of laptops are currently unavailable with AMD processors unfortunately.  The Ideapad slim 7 became available to order today, but only up to 4700u and limited to 8 GB ram. Also not a 2 in 1.

So to say Tiger Lake changes nothing, I would argue it changes quite a bit when compared to the ice lake alternatives I'm currently looking at.  XPS 13, Spectre x360, Samsung Galaxy book flex.  The potential driver issues are valid, but there's no doubt that Tiger lake will offer much better performance in games than Ice Lake.

Now if a Ryzen 4800u laptop with 16GB ram that suits my needs is suddenly announced over the next few months, I'll strongly consider it. 

[DavidC1]

@A

Ryzen 4000 laptops just released. What makes you think the 5000 will come in January 2021? It'll be April/May for laptop availability.

Tigerlake has 6-7 months in the market not 3.

[The Scott]

@Pablo240:

Tiger-Lake will change nothing. Intel has been taking graphics very seriously for almost a decade now. And they're still bad. Some are saying, this time will be different, but do keep in mind the current head of graphics at Intel (Raja Koduri) was the same guy who was responsible for the AMD Fury / Original Vega fiasco. He hyped those launches as well and we all know how that went down in history. And as A, has already pointed out, this is a completely new architecture so it'll be buggy. If you look at all the best architectures from Nvidia/AMD, they were all revised iterations, not 1st gen products. So if you take graphics seriously, Xe is not interesting at all.

I'm sure in a few years (2023), it'll become better but by then, so will arm gpu drivers. Apple will have long moved to arm by then and we will see more surface arm devices, probably start seeing more OEMs switch to arm by then too.

If you don't care about graphics at all, fair enough. But there are already many premium UHD 620 that've been widely available for several years now. And if you're not tied to windows, many premium ultra thin arm devices too.

Renoir and future AMD APU's may not be available now but people are excited for them because of the future. Prices of several 2k Ice Lake laptops have dropped almost half. Even if you don't care about AMD laptops, surely having cheaper Intel laptops can't be a bad thing?

Now if only we could have alternatives to Snapdragon, maybe phones and tablets would not be starting at 1k then...

Perhaps I have a unique use case, but I want a sub 3 lb ultrabook, 2 in 1 with a great display. I'd like to do some light gaming on it, games like rocket league and fortnite as well as older titles. So when looking at the processor, GPU is the priority.  As I mentioned, these types of laptops are currently unavailable with AMD processors unfortunately.  The Ideapad slim 7 became available to order today, but only up to 4700u and limited to 8 GB ram. Also not a 2 in 1.

So to say Tiger Lake changes nothing, I would argue it changes quite a bit when compared to the ice lake alternatives I'm currently looking at.  XPS 13, Spectre x360, Samsung Galaxy book flex.  The potential driver issues are valid, but there's no doubt that Tiger lake will offer much better performance in games than Ice Lake.

Now if a Ryzen 4800u laptop with 16GB ram that suits my needs is suddenly announced over the next few months, I'll strongly consider it.

I am in a similar situation. I just looked at the IdeaPad 7 Slim but I need a laptop with at least 16GB RAM to run my accessibility software smoothly.

I am not sure what is happening with Lenovo: first they advertise Thunderbolt 3 with AMD APUs, but then renege; next they advertise AMD APUs with the upcoming T14, but rumors are now suggesting that also will not happen. I really just want a quality business machine with AMD inside, but so far there is nothing from which to choose. I am tired of empty promises.

[kongo]

relax guys, its a 'rumors' website, in other words - liars