Laptops with Snapdragon X ARM processors have been on the market since more than half a year and basically every manufacturer offers a few models. Microsoft also supports the new ARM laptops, but are they real alternatives to x86 devices? After plenty of reviews, the impressions are still mixed.https://www.notebookcheck.net/Windows-on-ARM-report-Why-AMD-Intel-laptops-are-often-still-the-better-choice-over-Snapdragon-laptops.954000.0.html
OEM's seem rather clueless as to what might be important to users and potential users.
- weight vs run time on battery: more times than not highly efficient platforms get weak batteries, promoting 'light weight' over run times
- lack of connectivity in a mobile device: lacking WAN and modern LAN options are no surprise here.
- overshadowing the 'Windows Experience': no surprise here ether. Many OEM's operate in a seemingly mere 'parrot' of whatever Microsoft's narrative & agenda is. (IE: the OS and MS 'Office Apps' are native so that is ALL anyone could ever want)
Granted even with x86 there were often times where devices & drivers purchased with older versions of Windows often needed replacing because the latest version of Windows did not support them.
Yes Win-on-Arm is a non-x86 platform however to date (as noted) in the article it offers no clear advantage or selling point(s) for consumers to pick over x86.
BTW: in most conventions 'couple' equates to 'two' vs the 'handful or more' Snapdragon X versions Qualcomm has released. :)
I'll add to GeorgeS's comments...
It's also a question of what consumer this is aimed at. Most people who use laptops (or any computer) work 8 hours a day 5 days a week and usually at a desk. So if this is a work laptop, what does a 16 hour or even more bizarrely, 24 hour battery life buy you?
Most of the time, if I'm using a laptop for work, it's plugged in (yes, even at a coffee shop). It's just more convenient and lets the laptop work at full performance.
Same, but to a lesser degree, super-light weight or thinness? It's just going to sit on a desk or table 90% of the time and when it's not, it's being moved from one place to another in a shoulder bag or backpack.
So in a real sense long battery life past a certain point and super thinness or light weight isn't really getting you anything more.
In fact, the real killer feature that NO one talks about is long standby time while not having to hibernate or shut down the laptop. That gives you the ability to open the laptop and start using it right away without losing much battery life. My Samsung Tab S9 FE+ for example sips battery when it's sleeping - it can sleep for days and still be at 90%+ charge when I need it.
Are there people who need 24hr battery life in a laptop the thickness of a sheet of paper that weighs about the same as a sheet of paper? I'm sure they exist, but I'm also sure that's pretty rare.
So why is the industry (and tech bloggers) SO obsessed with this? 1. Apple 2. Upsell
Neither makes a good argument for it.
No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
QuoteThe software support will only get better in the next couple of years.
There is no guarantee of this.
If the market doesn't buy into this architecture, they will not develop software or support it.
ARM on Windows is dead in the water for serious consideration.
I have all of the CPU main models except the latest AMD. So latest Intel, Snapdragon X Plus, even the former Snapdragon based machines (Lenovo X13s).
I have Dell Inspiron 14 Plus - Snapdragon. Basically if you use standard software it works like a dream, has incredible battery life and works very quietly. Not had any major issues with it, just does what it should and is very fast. Will not run all the software I normally use (VPNs are really bad) but there are solutions to everything.
I have a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 (latest Intel chips) - it has been painful. Bad drivers, won't run Linux (a BIOS issue it seems) and lots of issues with Windows updates, GPU drivers (had to abandon Lenovo drivers and use Intel ones, but Windows keeps trying to overwrite those). It is a quiet machine, battery life for an Intel is very good, but honestly - I'm not thrilled with it.
I also have a ThinkPad X13 Gen 4 (so 13th Gen Intel). Everything runs on this, but it blows a bit loud under Windows but is utterly silent under Linux. Basically this is my 'go to machine' under linux (Fedora) and is nice and light with good build quality. It also was the cheapest machine to buy (stock clearance deal was a steal).
Conclusions - any new processor has compatibility issues it would seem. The speed of driver release is the critical factor. After 3 months my Lenovo Slim 7 still cannot run Linux, and still has weird driver glitches. Otherwise it is a nice machine. Qualcomm are actually releasing driver updates faster, and my 'cutting edge' Dell quickly became very easy to use. If you want 100% peace of mind - buy an older gen Intel or AMD...
Quote from: Mike S on January 29, 2025, 09:45:41Conclusions - any new processor has compatibility issues it would seem. The speed of driver release is the critical factor. After 3 months my Lenovo Slim 7 still cannot run Linux, and still has weird driver glitches. Otherwise it is a nice machine. Qualcomm are actually releasing driver updates faster, and my 'cutting edge' Dell quickly became very easy to use. If you want 100% peace of mind - buy an older gen Intel or AMD...
If you're going to compare the Linux experience in all 3 laptops you mentioned, at least be truthful.
While the Yoga Slim 7 (Lunar Lake) experience in Linux can be awful, at least in boots!
The Dell Inspiron 14 Plus doesn't even boot Linux lol
No Qualcomm Snapdragon laptop does, and it has been six months since release, with promises of Linux support since "day 1".
Linux support on Qualcomm laptop is a COMPLETE SH**SHOW. Which is even more amazing, since most top distros support aarch64, so if Qualcomm actually had Linux drivers, these laptops would run like a dream, and have way more battery life and performance than with Windows.
Dailying the Zenbook S 14 on Fedora Workstation 41 here, it gets me 12+ hours of battery life consistently web browsing and working with various languages in IntelliJ and VSCode
Everything works remarkably well apart from the mic not working properly, I would chalk up any issues in that regard to Lenovo...
Windows does constantly try to overwrite my GPU drivers too but the OEM drivers Asus provides do work fine for me, and vis-a-vis graphics, I don't believe Qualcomm is anywhere as mature lol
Vis-a-vis Linux experience on Qualcomm, I believe Ubuntu can be booted now on some models though you may experience some issues, I wouldn't expect massive improvements over Windows though, with Lunar Lake, my perf on Linux is only slightly better and battery life is pretty much the same
The problem was, Qualcomm laptops were priced too high at the onset. Qualcomm thought they could sweep everything under the rug with emulation (they couldn't), and, even more absurdly, assumed customers would believe that their (originally) $1500 laptops were on par with competing Intel and AMD offering. Well they clearly weren't. They needed to come in around half that price, with half the chip they initially launched. Then they could have at least built a userbase on their (at the time) superior Windows battery life, releasing a high end chip later if interest was strong enough. Instead, they insisted on going straight for the high end, and have failed to hit even 0.1% as a result. Now, they've got to deal with both a negative consumer perception AND Intel and AMD's increased efforts in the space. Strix Point and Lunar Lake are nothing to balk at. Qualcomm is now losing the battery life war to Intel and the performance war to AMD with those two releases.
Quote from: Hunter2020 on January 29, 2025, 03:54:49No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
Quote from: Value arb on January 29, 2025, 17:41:10Quote from: Hunter2020 on January 29, 2025, 03:54:49No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
A Chinese corporation stealing technology from a Western Country? This is completely unprecedented!
I recently purchased a Yoga 7X and couldn't be happier. It has a beautiful display, it is snappy, keyboard is of typical Lenovo high standard and the fans are barely audible. Granted, I am no power user, but as my daily driver, it has exceeded my expectations.
Quote from: Value arb on January 29, 2025, 17:41:10Quote from: Hunter2020 on January 29, 2025, 03:54:49No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
this isn't true at all. I wouldn't believe the US-military loving and data privacy snake Microsoft as far as I could throw them. you do realize every US tech company is an arm of the USDoD and US State Department right?
Quote from: opckieran on January 29, 2025, 18:31:41Quote from: Value arb on January 29, 2025, 17:41:10Quote from: Hunter2020 on January 29, 2025, 03:54:49No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
A Chinese corporation stealing technology from a Western Country? This is completely unprecedented!
tell me when did the US compensate China for inventing paper, writing, gunpowder, and the compass, or printing? and please remember literally all of those things were precursors to modern technology and innovations in computing or helped create their respective successors.
Quote from: The Werewolf on January 29, 2025, 02:18:11Are there people who need 24hr battery life in a laptop the thickness of a sheet of paper that weighs about the same as a sheet of paper? I'm sure they exist, but I'm also sure that's pretty rare.
Depending on the Corporation & Worker, there are folks that spend their entire work-day going from one business meeting after another. Laptop/notebook under one arm and beverage container in tow.
Sometimes juggling conference rooms on the same floor, building (multiple floors) or campus. :)
While in these meetings they might be 'taking notes' however often times they will be running & accessing industry specific & specialized applications to access information & models which in turn might be displayed on the conference rooms screens.
As mentioned a 'good sleep' function can be highly effective.
It is rather debatable and Corporation dependent if workers are outfitted with only a laptop (with some sort of docking solution at the 'cube' (if they actually have one)) or have both a desktop 'workstation' and a laptop to compliment it.
Personally my last few jobs I was outfitted with both. A desktop workstation in my assigned 'cube' as well as a laptop to take to meetings and work from home (or elsewhere) with.
QuoteA Chinese corporation stealing technology from a Western Country? This is completely unprecedented!
As if any bordered entity is any more trustworthy than another?
A laptop that gets "x" hours of uptime today, will likely get a significant fewer amount of hours over the laptop's lifetime.
Having that buffer is pretty important for people that work in an environment where they don't necessarily want to be thinking about plugging in at all (like a trial attorney using laptop for 12+hours a day and juggling numerous things, as for an example I can attest to personally.)
Quote from: neverUStech on January 29, 2025, 20:12:40tell me when did the US compensate China for inventing paper, writing, gunpowder, and the compass, or printing? and please remember literally all of those things were precursors to modern technology and innovations in computing or helped create their respective successors.
Those patents have long expired ;) I'm sure China was well-compensated for their technological contributions throughout human history through increased trade. (And if you have to have to go back hundreds or thousands of years, I don't have to explain how paper-thin that makes your argument.) It's no excuse for China to start ripping off other countries today.
Quote from: opckieran on January 30, 2025, 16:36:12Quote from: neverUStech on January 29, 2025, 20:12:40tell me when did the US compensate China for inventing paper, writing, gunpowder, and the compass, or printing? and please remember literally all of those things were precursors to modern technology and innovations in computing or helped create their respective successors.
Those patents have long expired ;) I'm sure China was well-compensated for their technological contributions throughout human history through increased trade. (And if you have to have to go back hundreds or thousands of years, I don't have to explain how paper-thin that makes your argument.) It's no excuse for China to start ripping off other countries today.
Copying Is Not Theft (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4)
Quote from: Value arb on January 29, 2025, 17:41:10Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
Who cares? First, no statement from the American government or companies adjacent to them can be trusted, as """current events""" over the past few years have shown us time and time again. Second, it's well known the chinese think it's normal to lie, steal and cheat to get ahead. Of course they would have stolen it if they could. So even if it's true, the only thing that matters to me is the final result for the end user. A cheaper, faster, better and OPEN model is objectively better for the end user. All the "tech corporations" and their cronies in the US government and 3 letter agencies can... [this statement would likely be too crass for the forum rules, so it will be omitted]
Quote from: Value arb on January 29, 2025, 17:41:10Quote from: Hunter2020 on January 29, 2025, 03:54:49No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
Mmm, but when OpenAI is blatantly stealing then it's all good, right? That's pRoGrEsS. When someone steals from them - oh the evil thieves 😱
😅😅
If you want proper ARM, get a Mac or Macbook.
x86 will go the way of the dinosaur, everything will be emulated, while Windows have to make do with what Qualcomm or Microsoft/Samsung offers.
Macs are better for work anyway. Keep a Windows x86 machine for gaming if that's what you want.
Quote from: Worgarthe on January 31, 2025, 00:51:47Quote from: Value arb on January 29, 2025, 17:41:10Quote from: Hunter2020 on January 29, 2025, 03:54:49No thanks. I'm fed up with Windows post version 8.1. I have 7 new Windows 7/8.1 capable/era mini-PCs stored up in my closet to last the "tech outage" until Huawei or Xiaomi unveils custom PC OS running on self made non-Intel non-Qualcomms chipsets. If China's Deepseek has proven superior to ChatGPT in terms of resource usage, so too will the PC OSes from Xiaomi and Huawei!
Your opinion on the DeepSeek matter really depends on what kind of country you think China is. Nothing more needs to be said.
P.S: Enjoy the tariffs, sanctions and more fun coming soon.
Microsoft caught DeepSeek downloading massive amounts of data from OpenAIs dev API, they aren't superior, they stole it.
Mmm, but when OpenAI is blatantly stealing then it's all good, right? That's pRoGrEsS. When someone steals from them - oh the evil thieves 😱
😅😅
Quote from: indy on January 30, 2025, 17:29:21Quote from: opckieran on January 30, 2025, 16:36:12Quote from: neverUStech on January 29, 2025, 20:12:40tell me when did the US compensate China for inventing paper, writing, gunpowder, and the compass, or printing? and please remember literally all of those things were precursors to modern technology and innovations in computing or helped create their respective successors.
Those patents have long expired ;) I'm sure China was well-compensated for their technological contributions throughout human history through increased trade. (And if you have to have to go back hundreds or thousands of years, I don't have to explain how paper-thin that makes your argument.) It's no excuse for China to start ripping off other countries today.
Copying Is Not Theft (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4)
You just undermined your own prior premise. Congrats.
Quote from: neverUStech on January 29, 2025, 20:12:40tell me when did the US compensate China for inventing paper, writing, gunpowder, and the compass, or printing? and please remember literally all of those things were precursors to modern technology and innovations in computing or helped create their respective successors.
Wait, what? You are aware that just cause someone invents something doesn't mean they own it till the ends of time. Everything has a stature of limitation. And none of what you mentioned was invented by China. While some of it was invented by someone who happened to be in China at the time, it has nothing to do with modern country of China. For all we know, even the distant relatives of the people who invented it don't exist today.
In case of paper, it was for example invented in Egypt. Just a process that is more like modern paper was made in Han empire, and he was an Eunuch. So no one alive today is even related to him.
Quote from: LOL on February 02, 2025, 16:35:47If you want proper ARM, get a Mac or Macbook.
x86 will go the way of the dinosaur, everything will be emulated, while Windows have to make do with what Qualcomm or Microsoft/Samsung offers.
Macs are better for work anyway. Keep a Windows x86 machine for gaming if that's what you want.
I found Macs unusable for work.
x86 isn't going anywhere soon. If anything, ARM is more likely to disappear before x86 does. Apple and Qualcomm just user ARM instructions and use their own designs. The rest are mostly budget vendors.
There is now interest in RISC-V to bypass ARM so that they don't have to deal with ARM's royalty which is only getting more expensive.
For sure, WoA has 0 chance. They've had 10 years now and a multi trillion dollar company behind them. It's clear where their motives lie.
However, considering just how unpopular windows is getting to the general public, I don't think this is the end of arm for desktop.
It could still potentially pave the way / give rise for Arm taking off on desktop Linux, given Microsoft's continued fumbling.
Quote from: S on February 13, 2025, 11:43:17For sure, WoA has 0 chance. They've had 10 years now and a multi trillion dollar company behind them. It's clear where their motives lie.
However, considering just how unpopular windows is getting to the general public, I don't think this is the end of arm for desktop.
It could still potentially pave the way / give rise for Arm taking off on desktop Linux, given Microsoft's continued fumbling.
Sadly, as long as there are industry segments compiling their applications ONLY for Windows API's those segments will be stuck with Microsoft and Windows.
Along the same lines, as long as there are industry segments compiling their applications ONLY for x86 those segments will be stuck with Intel & AMD.
Frankly, the average consumer really could not care less WHAT underlying CPU or even Operating system a device has, as long as it is USEFUL for their use case.