NotebookCHECK - Notebook Forum

Given how the unbinned M3 Pro barely a sidegrade compared to an unbinned M2 Pro, it really sounds like Apple crippled it on purpose to make the M3 Max shine - which wouldn't be a problem if the Macbook Pro it powered didn't start at $3k.

Efficiency over performance is miffed, nobody buys a MBP for efficiency - there's the Macbook Air if one wants efficiency (and it's much cheaper).

Quote from: Julian M on November 24, 2023, 21:55:44there's the Macbook Air if one wants efficiency

They have about the same battery life actually, 16 M Pro and 15 Air, 14 M Pro and 13 Air. Battery is bigger.

Quote from: Julian M on November 24, 2023, 21:55:44(...)nobody buys a MBP for efficiency - there's the Macbook Air if one wants efficiency (and it's much cheaper).

There are people who want the big beautiful miniLED display, the great speakers, but do not need the power. They actually care about efficiency. For them this new Pro chip is perfect. Longer battery life is always welcome.

Quote from: joegalamb on November 24, 2023, 22:54:05

Quote from: Julian M on November 24, 2023, 21:55:44(...)nobody buys a MBP for efficiency - there's the Macbook Air if one wants efficiency (and it's much cheaper).

There are people who want the big beautiful miniLED display, the great speakers, but do not need the power. They actually care about efficiency. For them this new Pro chip is perfect. Longer battery life is always welcome.

Enjoy the flickering.

Any screen with PWM significantly higher than 1 kHz no longer poses any special problems, even for people who are sensitive to this and have a fast nervous system.

You need to pay attention only to the flickering, which is clearly visible on the standard "pencil" test or on the camera - if at working and minimum brightness no pencil phases or brightness changes are visible on the camera, the screen as a whole is sufficient from the point of view of safety for the nervous system.

I personally (and I am very sensitive to this topic) do not experience any particular problems with screens where the flicker frequency exceeds 1 kHz with a minimum amplitude. Already at 2 kHz everything is generally quite good. If you believe the data from the review (and there is always doubt about this data), then 14 kHz (if, of course, you believe the author, who assures that there is no difference with another Apple model in terms of screen and did not do tests) is more than sufficient PWM frequency so that no one will notice the presence of flickering even with peripheral vision.

The problem with AMOLED screens is precisely that due to very rapid burnout (and as a consequence - rapid destabilization of color rendition accuracy, and it is already unimportant after hardware calibrations, as many local reviews show, if you believe them), there It is physically impossible to increase the duty cycle of the pulses - burnout will only accelerate. Low flicker frequency (low duty cycle) is intended to limit the destructive tendencies of OLED at operating brightness levels, where color accuracy is also worse for OLED than at high brightness. Any attempts to increase the PWM frequency on AMOLED lead to problems - clearly visible banding (especially in dynamics), which is a consequence of deterioration in color depth (details), as well as a reduction in the resource of organic LEDs, which are significantly inferior to single-color IPS/VA backlighting.

MiniLED, for that matter, has a bigger problem with ghosting around objects at zone boundaries than with the switching frequency. Some people write in reviews that on monitors (where there is a manual switch off of the multi-zone backlight to the level of a regular single-zone), they cannot withstand these defects and switch to single-zone backlight, despite a significant drop in contrast in other areas of the screen where there are no luminous pixels. So miniLED is a crutch in an attempt to emulate AMOLED in contrast (black level) using previously unsuitable means.

And so far there is no hope for microLED, which still cannot be launched into series on large screens. If it also has low-frequency PWM (due to the glow of each subpixel independently and therefore problems with the resource due to its small size), then there is no point in waiting for it either. Understanding this problem, manufacturers do not want to produce flickering screens that offer nothing compared to AMOLED, which is why microLED still does not exist, despite Apple's attempts to make them on its own.

So today only IPS/VA with sufficient contrast (from 1500:1) are comfortable for the eyes. And miniLED is a crutch to hold out until the "holy grail" that everyone still believes in - microLED.

AMOLED is good in dynamic pictures - in video and partly in dynamic games. For working with a static image, this is an extremely unsuccessful technology today.

Is it just me or NikoB just accepted MiniLED is king today without his usual bs about HDR10 etc.
I'm glad our conversations are making you smarter, boi.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 14:22:28So today only IPS/VA with sufficient contrast (from 1500:1) are comfortable for the eyes.

Still can't live without bs though, yeah?

Quote from: A on November 25, 2023, 14:34:17NikoB just accepted MiniLED is king today

Young man, you are seriously sick in the head if, after everything I have written, you are still making futile attempts with such nonsense.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 14:44:26Young man, you are seriously sick in the head if, after everything I have written, you are still making futile attempts with such nonsense.

Yeah, all-in insulting is NikoB's way to admit he was wrong (as usual).

Readers can easily find, whoever is not too lazy, who started it all, so pot calls the kettle black, you are our pathetic, low-paid bot.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 15:33:28Readers can easily find, whoever is not too lazy, who started it all, so pot calls the kettle black, you are our pathetic, low-paid bot.

There's no 'readers', kiddo, they exist only in your head. Noone's reading this. And we both know that it started with your marxist bs about 'unfair prices' and bs about ram bandwidth tests. So there's nobody to even read your powerless angry insults after you were proved wrong. Which is a pity actually, because it's funny - you really kinda expect sore loser from Internet like you can be taken seriously enough to get someone insulted. )

If no one is reading, why are you pathetic, corrupt and underpaid bots attached to me? Ignore me! =)

"I've been chasing you for three days to tell you how indifferent you are to me." (с)

Quote from: NikoB on November 26, 2023, 13:54:05If no one is reading, why are you pathetic, corrupt and underpaid bots attached to me? Ignore me! =)
"I've been chasing you for three days to tell you how indifferent you are to me." (с)

Nah, I never ignore clowns, they are funny. So me and you will stick here for a while boy.

Quote from: NikoB on November 25, 2023, 14:22:28And so far there is no hope for microLED

Seriously?!
And what about MiniLED from Asus (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-M16-2023-laptop-review-RTX-4090-with-a-super-bright-Mini-LED-display.702260.0.html).
There are no halos like Apple. And it is also matte! and 240Hz.

Quote from: Alexander_ on November 27, 2023, 10:11:36And it is also matte!

Sounds like a nice tough for people always working on the roof with the Sun behind them. )

Touch*

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 14:37:40Sounds like a nice tough for people always working on the roof with the Sun behind them

Yes.
A laptop is not only a PC for use in the office without windows behind the back. It is also a travel tool. You won't close the curtains in the entire compartment of the car if you need to do some work!?

And if you came to another city/country and you need to work a little in a cafe, but there are sun glares here!?
It is not for nothing that all professional monitors for designers are matte. Because nobody wants to "break his eyes" once again.

Therefore, yes, a matte screen (high-quality!) is always an advantage over a glossy one.

Quote from: Alexander_ on November 27, 2023, 15:43:47Therefore, yes, a matte screen (high-quality!) is always an advantage over a glossy one.

I agree with you on everything except I'm just a glossy screen person ) Can crank brightness up and forget the reflections. Usually if cranking up brightness doesn't help matte screen also wouldn't help.

I got my M3 max fully loaded a couple of weeks ago. it's so nice and fast. I have a 57 Samsung monitor connected to it and the picture is beautiful and the laptop handles it well. The machine even turns off fast.

Could you test games with Low Power mode for performance and how much battery you would get? (or just what the total system draw is, you can kinda extrapolate from that)

Alternatively, you could run games at maybe Medium ~800p with a frame cap of 60 (or Vsync, but it would go to 120Hz unless you adjust it down)?



Just wondering how good gaming on battery is, wondering if Macbooks can do a better job than handhelds / APU laptops (if you get good battery you could increase the brightness to make it somewhat usable outdoors, certainly with forced HDR brightness, at the cost of battery and a few $100 more)?

Quote from: Yeshy on November 29, 2023, 12:46:54Just wondering how good gaming on battery is

Just a note that iOS games can _natively_ run on M macs via e.g. PlayCover (competitive ones like CoD will ban you though) on big screen with keyboard and mouse bindings (WASD+mouse etc.)

Quote from: Yeshy on November 29, 2023, 12:46:54Just wondering how good gaming on battery is, wondering if Macbooks can do a better job than handhelds / APU laptops (if you get good battery you could increase the brightness to make it somewhat usable outdoors, certainly with forced HDR brightness, at the cost of battery and a few $100 more)?

No real dedicated test yet on YT for that specific scenario but this (https://youtu.be/E1kUNAMFLFA?t=303), so about up to 2 hours of gaming - M3 Pro -63% in 1 hour, M3 -47% in 1 hour (https://imgur.com/yDlfnNh).

Quote from: Neenyah on November 29, 2023, 14:21:02so about up to 2 hours of gaming

There's Witcher 3 Ultra power consumption in the review, 56W, 105Wh battery capacity / 56W = a bit less than two hours. Lower settings + FPS limit = less power draw.

Low Power mode will limit fps to 60 instead of 120, so CPU and GPU will not be fully loaded by a mile.

When I first bought into M Max I've played Dying Light in Low Power mode... I actually remember my personal findings were around 6hrs _for that particular game_ =BUT= I'm not standing behind these words as it was 2yrs ago.

To be honest I'd like to see that gaming on battery (with Low Power mode/Medium+FPS limit) test done on the 14", so ~70Whr instead of ~100Whr, but I thought I'd comment here since there's less comments lol

A comparison between the Pro and the Max would be interesting too, since you'll likely be much more efficient on the Max chips when under less load?

2hrs is kinda nothing, I want to see with lower settings / not maxed out. I was able to get ~3hrs on a 2014 MBP 13" (much older games though, Skyrim LE with some mods lol), CPU is 28W max to begin with and you can get it a lot lower (this was on Windows) so assuming 28W total system draw, ~70Whr/28 is 2.5hrs easily

AMD 680M/780M devices can probably do much better at <20W CPU/APU only plus maybe 5W for screen etc hopefully. And RDNA 2/3 is nowhere near as efficient as Nvidia, and Apple is probably better?

And seemingly every laptop with an OLED/miniLED panel that is reasonably bright gets very poor battery except for the Macbooks

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 15:50:56Usually if cranking up brightness doesn't help matte screen also wouldn't help.

It does not. And NB's tests prove it.

Quote from: A on November 27, 2023, 15:50:56crank brightness up and forget the reflections

No, by increasing the brightness, you will not remove the glare of the glossy screen.
You just don't travel much and you don't have a window with good sunlight behind you. Well, of course, we are not talking about all matte screens, but about high-quality ones.

Quote from: Alexander_ on December 05, 2023, 16:49:51and you don't have a window with good sunlight behind you

Turn away

A place with a window behind may be the best for one's seat, as for mine in the dining room.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 05, 2023, 18:18:07A place with a window behind may be the best for one's seat, as for mine in the dining room.

Looks like a solution in search of a problem. Ever-complicating task of finding max. inconvenient place in the world just to prove some point.
If you see a reflection of window and can't turn away, you still can turn the laptop. If it's just too bright and screen looks dim - it's not about glossy/matte at all, your screen isn't bright enough. Also, switch off the dark mode when cranking brightness up.

It is 80% about glossy / matte, 10% about brightness and 10% contrast.

Steve Jobs: You are holding it wrong!

A: You are sitting wrongly!

I: I want to use a mobile device in every position at every place.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 12:01:1210% about brightness

You are arguing with physics.
Actually it's 90% about brightness (and 1% about not using dark mode). There is always a point - if your brightness is high enough - when you will not be able to see reflections. Glossy/matte will not matter at all. Your glossy phone will do better in direct sunlight that your matte 400cd/m2 panel just because of higher brightness. And if your brightness isn't enough - it will not be enough for both.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 12:01:1210% contrast

P.S. Contrast IS brightness, roughly.

Contrast = max brightness/black pixel luminance (which is a constant for given panel).

Quote from: A on December 05, 2023, 17:25:16Turn away

I don't know how old you are. Maybe you are a student and use your laptop mainly for playing games at home and it is easy for you to change the location of your desk. Maybe you are the owner of a company and you are free to decide where your desktop will be.

But the reality is that there are not always places where you can independently change the layout of the office, close the curtains in the train compartment, without causing discomfort to anyone (because otherwise the light will sparkle from the glossy screen), or somewhere in a cafe in a bright country, work a little without excessive discomfort (due to the same glare).

Therefore, if you do not see something that can disturb people, it does not mean that it does not exist.

Quote from: Alexander_ on December 06, 2023, 12:21:14But the reality is that there are not always places where you can independently change the layout of the office, close the curtains in the train compartment, without causing discomfort to anyone (because otherwise the light will sparkle from the glossy screen), or somewhere in a cafe in a bright country, work a little without excessive discomfort (due to the same glare).

You being afraid to disturb people or to ask for a normal working environment isn't related to glossy/matte panels at all.

Get a brighter panel.

Quote from: A on December 06, 2023, 12:12:22if your brightness is high enough - when you will not be able to see reflections.

Because blind from the reflected sun and high display brightness.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 14:19:52Because blind from the reflected sun and high display brightness.

Expectation - all those burns on your face from your glossy phone pushing blinding 1000+ nits outside. Reality - did not even notice, because your eyes see a difference between ambient lighting and screen brightness.

All these "glossy vs. matte" cool stories are back from 300cd/m2 panels days, right now it's a matter of personal preference.

So why does Apple not enable choice by personal preference?

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 16:01:10So why does Apple not enable choice by personal preference?

This doesn't sound serious, no one else gives you a choice too, it's either glossy or matte.

Put a matte film on it. And then remove it of course, because matte screen looks cheap af.
youtube.com/watch?v=yV_Ml8s3nzY

Inform yourself better.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 17:58:28Inform yourself better.

I already see where it's going. You will be trying to pretend "sh*tty/good screen" choice couple laptop models give is a "glossy/matte" choice. Just admit you are picking on Apple and that's it.

This is an Apple thread so I discuss Apple in particular. And glare display is one of the sufficient reasons for, e.g., me not to buy an MBP.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 19:48:21This is an Apple thread so I discuss Apple in particular. And glare display is one of the sufficient reasons for, e.g., me not to buy an MBP.

So, just as I said

Quote from: A on December 06, 2023, 15:21:56right now it's a matter of personal preference

Still, you can get a matte film for your display.

I want a good display - not a stopgap measure.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 22:05:45I want a good display - not a stopgap measure.

I've choked a bit when MBP display was called a "stopgap". ))) Okay, so who's the contender? Any specific model?

Apart from the ratio, my display requirements are modest:
- rectangular displayed area
- no notch no bump no nothing
- silent
- no flickering
- matte
- reasonable brightness
- adjustable brightness
- adjustable contrast
- <16.7ms response times = 60+Hz displayed contents
- no obvious flaws (pixels, colours, bleeding...)

MBPs fail in at least 4 of my modest aspects.

Quote from: RobertJasiek on December 06, 2023, 23:03:14Apart from the ratio, my display requirements are modest:
- rectangular displayed area
- no notch no bump no nothing
- silent
- no flickering
- matte
- reasonable brightness
- adjustable brightness
- adjustable contrast
- <16.7ms response times = 60+Hz displayed contents
- no obvious flaws (pixels, colours, bleeding...)
MBPs fail in at least 4 of my modest aspects.

Adjustable contrast = adjustable gamma.
Looks like you are describing a very mediocre IPS display.

I no longer hope that microLED will be any better than AMOLED. Most likely, if it is launched in a mass series, it will have the same problems as AMOLED - a glossy glare screen, low-frequency PWM (since single luminous subpixels will burn out and drift in the accuracy of the glow spectrum much faster than large white or other LEDs, in conventional edge or multi-row backlighting), problems with color accuracy and rapid burnout.

Today there are only two working technologies (outside of viewing content in complete darkness) - IPS and VA - comfortable for the eyes and the associated nervous system. Both technologies allow you to have fairly fast screens, with good resolution (at least 4k 16:10 today) and accurate color reproduction, with good viewing angles (especially with an A-TW polarizer, which has not been installed anywhere for a long time, even in top models) and acceptable contrast.

But in reality. There are a lot of cheap IPS/VA versions on the market with a lot of shortcomings for the sake of mass reduction in price, because... real prices for quality options would rise much higher than what the average person out of 8 billion people on the planet can now afford. Thus, in practice, we observe not progress in display technologies, but natural degradation, if we look at it all as a whole.

I see no reason why corporations will reverse these negative trends in the medium term. They have always not cared about the health and comfort of people if, out of their own stupidity, they buy a dangerous product. Remember what happened with smoking before - when did it start to worry anyone? And certainly not the tobacco corporations that still exist and sell life-threatening products...

AMOLED (Active OLED matrix) as it is sold should be banned by law, just like Teflon (although this is just a trademark for the substance).