Quote from: A on August 17, 2024, 04:12:28

Quote from: GeorgeS on August 16, 2024, 19:31:54"Power output" is basic Ohms law: Voltage*Current. (from the Panels themselves) Rarely does anyone ever see the rated output.

QuoteAgain, the reason is because your panels are rated DC power. What you use is AC so you have some losses, even more so because your inverter is clipping.

But the rated power is irrelevant, what is most important is how much ENERGY you get, because you pay for energy on your electric bill, not for power (unless of course you upgrade your service amps)

I'm sorry but on what planet does that make any sense? Solar panels are rated in WATTS of DC power. (Watts is a measurement of DC or AC power and it is all simply Ohms Law)

Purchase a solar panel of ANY rated wattage and unless you are testing it in a scientific lab, YOU'LL NEVER SEE the rated output!! Period.

Much like most ANYTHING on the market these days (outside of volume containers) everything is over rated and not under rated. Expect to see -%10 to -%30 reduction of actual output from the panels in the real world.

QuoteWhile YES a FEW (less than a handful) of companies have remained in the Solar cell production game, HOWEVER DOZENS more come and go (startup-fail, startup-fail, repeat) and the market is flooded with a wide range of cells/panels from almost countless companies.

QuoteThe one who offers warranty is the panel manufacturers and installers. If you do financing, your financing can also provide warranty. Generally, if you order from a tier 1 provider, you are pretty safe.

As mentioned the panel manufacturers come and go with the seasons as well as the installers. Sure there might be a few that stay in the market over the long haul (BP Solar & LG are two examples) however the majority are very short term.

QuoteThen there's the installers. Much like (and even quicker than the device makers) they quickly come and go.

QuoteWhich is why you should shop from installers that have been in business for a long time. For example, my installer was in business for over 20 years.

For much of the world 'solar' has not been an industry or even profitable for 20yrs so good luck finding companies that have been in business that long! LOL! Of course just because they have a HISTORY does not mean they won't go under tomorrow!!!

QuoteDepending on where you live the installed cost is $4-15USD per watt for the entire system.

QuoteI am not aware of any place with $4-15 per watt for the entire system. Not unless you intentionally like to get ripped off.

The US is probably one of the most expensive places to install solar (artificially), and it is $2-3 per watt installed before subsidies for the entire system.

Other parts of the world are closer to $1 per watt installed for the entire system before subsidies

In the US the 'solar industry' has many sponsored websites that provide quotes in the range I provided.

While I can DIY <=$1 a watt installed (with retail priced parts) the US solar industry wishes to line their pockets with tax incentive profits.

Recently (just for fun) I asked for quotes and they came in >$4 per watt AFTER a unusable %30 tax incentive!! LOL!!! Needless to say I never engaged any of these companies.

(Keep in mind that 'power output' is AT the panel itself using NIS calibrated lab measuring devices in real world environments)

The actual degradation rate of modern panels exceeds 5% per year. That says it all. All promises about service life of 15-25 years are pure deception of consumers.

Quote from: GeorgeS on August 16, 2024, 19:31:54"Power output" is basic Ohms law: Voltage*Current. (from the Panels themselves) Rarely does anyone ever see the rated output.

Again, the reason is because your panels are rated DC power. What you use is AC so you have some losses, even more so because your inverter is clipping.

But the rated power is irrelevant, what is most important is how much ENERGY you get, because you pay for energy on your electric bill, not for power (unless of course you upgrade your service amps)

QuoteWhile YES a FEW (less than a handful) of companies have remained in the Solar cell production game, HOWEVER DOZENS more come and go (startup-fail, startup-fail, repeat) and the market is flooded with a wide range of cells/panels from almost countless companies.

The one who offers warranty is the panel manufacturers and installers. If you do financing, your financing can also provide warranty. Generally, if you order from a tier 1 provider, you are pretty safe.

QuoteThen there's the installers. Much like (and even quicker than the device makers) they quickly come and go.

Which is why you should shop from installers that have been in business for a long time. For example, my installer was in business for over 20 years.

QuoteDepending on where you live the installed cost is $4-15USD per watt for the entire system.

I am not aware of any place with $4-15 per watt for the entire system. Not unless you intentionally like to get ripped off.

The US is probably one of the most expensive places to install solar (artificially), and it is $2-3 per watt installed before subsidies for the entire system.

Other parts of the world are closer to $1 per watt installed for the entire system before subsidies

Quote from: A on August 16, 2024, 03:43:29

Quote from: GeorgeS on August 15, 2024, 04:05:56I think there is some confusion here.

Brand NEW they might be 'rated for %22 efficiency' and CLAIM a # for wattage output.

The REALITY IS that NOBODY EVER see's panels operate at their rated output.

SO your brand new 400W panel might be DE-RATED (due to your location AND your NOT in a science LAB) to be in reality outputting 340-360W when installed.

I think you are the one confused.

Solar panels can operate at their rated output just fine, many have seen it. The biggest reason why you usually won't is because the panels themselves advertise DC output, but what you get is AC. Ignoring the conversion losses to AC, most inverters are set up to clip peak output. Clipping results in less peak power, but allows for overall more energy from the panels.

Of course angle and, location etc also plays a role in how much you get. That said so you know a 400W panel is actually likely 402W or 401W. The rating is a guaranteed minimum for peak power

QuoteSo what your are warrantied for is 88% of the 340-360W after 25 years (~300-316W).

You are not making any point here, the end result is the same.

Quote(sadly, good luck getting a replacement. Solar companies come/go every few years)

You are thinking of solar installers, which while offering their own warranty you still have the warranty from the manufacturer many of which have been around for decades.

Even when some left like LG, they still honor the warranties.

QuoteAND YES in some areas of the world the Electric companies will PAY for the power your generating.

In some areas, but less and less do and the rates they give you are low. Most just give you credit. Overall it isn't worth it.

QuoteHOWEVER many 'solar companies' will want to charge $4-10USD per watt installation making the time in years to make enough power to pay for the solar system >15-20yrs anyway.

You mean door to door salesmen in US who rip people off? The general going rate in US from proper installers is $2-3 per watt before subsidies. Most other parts of the world pay only around $1 per watt installed before subsidies

"Power output" is basic Ohms law: Voltage*Current. (from the Panels themselves) Rarely does anyone ever see the rated output.

While YES a FEW (less than a handful) of companies have remained in the Solar cell production game, HOWEVER DOZENS more come and go (startup-fail, startup-fail, repeat) and the market is flooded with a wide range of cells/panels from almost countless companies.

Then there's the installers. Much like (and even quicker than the device makers) they quickly come and go.

So sure, best of LUCK getting a new panel or having it replace under any 'warranty'.

Depending on where you live the installed cost is $4-15USD per watt for the entire system.

Also depending on the electricity costs in your area the rate you get paid for generating your own power (making your meter run 'backwards') can be vastly different.

Quote from: GeorgeS on August 15, 2024, 04:05:56I think there is some confusion here.

Brand NEW they might be 'rated for %22 efficiency' and CLAIM a # for wattage output.

The REALITY IS that NOBODY EVER see's panels operate at their rated output.

SO your brand new 400W panel might be DE-RATED (due to your location AND your NOT in a science LAB) to be in reality outputting 340-360W when installed.

I think you are the one confused.

Solar panels can operate at their rated output just fine, many have seen it. The biggest reason why you usually won't is because the panels themselves advertise DC output, but what you get is AC. Ignoring the conversion losses to AC, most inverters are set up to clip peak output. Clipping results in less peak power, but allows for overall more energy from the panels.

Of course angle and, location etc also plays a role in how much you get. That said so you know a 400W panel is actually likely 402W or 401W. The rating is a guaranteed minimum for peak power

QuoteSo what your are warrantied for is 88% of the 340-360W after 25 years (~300-316W).

You are not making any point here, the end result is the same.

Quote(sadly, good luck getting a replacement. Solar companies come/go every few years)

You are thinking of solar installers, which while offering their own warranty you still have the warranty from the manufacturer many of which have been around for decades.

Even when some left like LG, they still honor the warranties.

QuoteAND YES in some areas of the world the Electric companies will PAY for the power your generating.

In some areas, but less and less do and the rates they give you are low. Most just give you credit. Overall it isn't worth it.

QuoteHOWEVER many 'solar companies' will want to charge $4-10USD per watt installation making the time in years to make enough power to pay for the solar system >15-20yrs anyway.

You mean door to door salesmen in US who rip people off? The general going rate in US from proper installers is $2-3 per watt before subsidies. Most other parts of the world pay only around $1 per watt installed before subsidies

Quote from: A on August 15, 2024, 02:15:44

Quote from: Mr Majestyk on August 14, 2024, 02:33:18Sorry, what the time they held 95% efficiency over. Unless it's rated at least 20 years it's a hard sell IMO. My 22% efficient n-type solar cells are rated at 88% efficiency after 25 years. Highly doubt I'll keep more than 10-12 years though with all the new breakthroughs and the fact solar panels are already approaching 500W for residential sizes and 700W for commercial sizes.

When we can get 750W+ residential panels with 30-35% efficiency I'll be ready to switch.

Your panels maybe are warrantied for 88% after 25 years? Which isn't exactly same thing as rated. Usually it should outperform that number since no one wants to pay out

That said, why would you replace your panels in 10-12 years? Unless you plan to also replace your roof, no breakthrough would make it worth the while. Solar farms do it because they lease land, so switching to cheaper more efficient models means more returns. But for you, the utility isn't paying you money right? So you are best off keeping them as long as possible.

I think there is some confusion here.

Brand NEW they might be 'rated for %22 efficiency' and CLAIM a # for wattage output.

The REALITY IS that NOBODY EVER see's panels operate at their rated output.

SO your brand new 400W panel might be DE-RATED (due to your location AND your NOT in a science LAB) to be in reality outputting 340-360W when installed.

So what your are warrantied for is 88% of the 340-360W after 25 years (~300-316W).
(sadly, good luck getting a replacement. Solar companies come/go every few years)

AND YES in some areas of the world the Electric companies will PAY for the power your generating.

HOWEVER many 'solar companies' will want to charge $4-10USD per watt installation making the time in years to make enough power to pay for the solar system >15-20yrs anyway.

Quote from: Mr Majestyk on August 14, 2024, 02:33:18Sorry, what the time they held 95% efficiency over. Unless it's rated at least 20 years it's a hard sell IMO. My 22% efficient n-type solar cells are rated at 88% efficiency after 25 years. Highly doubt I'll keep more than 10-12 years though with all the new breakthroughs and the fact solar panels are already approaching 500W for residential sizes and 700W for commercial sizes.

When we can get 750W+ residential panels with 30-35% efficiency I'll be ready to switch.

Your panels maybe are warrantied for 88% after 25 years? Which isn't exactly same thing as rated. Usually it should outperform that number since no one wants to pay out

That said, why would you replace your panels in 10-12 years? Unless you plan to also replace your roof, no breakthrough would make it worth the while. Solar farms do it because they lease land, so switching to cheaper more efficient models means more returns. But for you, the utility isn't paying you money right? So you are best off keeping them as long as possible.

Quote from: Josh B on August 14, 2024, 07:37:50Dear Notebookcheck, please consider "Nomen est omen". I personally abhor the "enshittification" of this website, where the front page has nothing to do with friggin laptops.
Please go back and do what you are actually good at - reviewing damn laptops!

It would appear that anything remotely related to technology is now fair game for this site. While I personally like seeing many of the science articles much of the rest is simply parroted OEM marketing speak.

They DO have to pay the bills somehow right?

Quote from: Mr Majestyk on August 14, 2024, 02:33:18Sorry, what the time they held 95% efficiency over. Unless it's rated at least 20 years it's a hard sell IMO. My 22% efficient n-type solar cells are rated at 88% efficiency after 25 years. Highly doubt I'll keep more than 10-12 years though with all the new breakthroughs and the fact solar panels are already approaching 500W for residential sizes and 700W for commercial sizes.

When we can get 750W+ residential panels with 30-35% efficiency I'll be ready to switch.

Couldn't agree more, this site is turning into a plethora of bullshitism, an affiliate clickbait website 

As a researcher I find the presentation of fundamental research on a consumer website extremely problematic: 1) the research is merely a first demonstration that might never make it into production for a number of reasons, and 2) this website normally writes about consumer goods which implies it already did.

Furthermore I strongly doubt that presenting high-end academic studies this way is appropriate for audience-appropriate, given the highly technical presentation the journalist chose, which holds no meaning for the intended consumer audience and can give ample grounds for misunderstanding and miconceptualization.

Dear Notebookcheck, please consider "Nomen est omen". I personally abhor the "enshittification" of this website, where the front page has nothing to do with friggin laptops.
Please go back and do what you are actually good at - reviewing damn laptops!

Sorry, what the time they held 95% efficiency over. Unless it's rated at least 20 years it's a hard sell IMO. My 22% efficient n-type solar cells are rated at 88% efficiency after 25 years. Highly doubt I'll keep more than 10-12 years though with all the new breakthroughs and the fact solar panels are already approaching 500W for residential sizes and 700W for commercial sizes.

When we can get 750W+ residential panels with 30-35% efficiency I'll be ready to switch.