But you replace a phone with 20% battery degraded after 2 years.

So these stats for a tesla are good.
8 years and 450 k km? Amazing performance from tesla. Now just change the car battery.

Quote from: TimH3141259 on July 21, 2024, 21:37:36The problem with these "case studies" is that we all have owned laptops, tablets and phones.  The car batteries are EXACTLY THE SAME as those devices.  And we all know that after 3 years the battery is DOA. I'll take first hand experience over propaganda any day.

Talk about ignorance, your logic is the same as saying humans live only 2 years because mice are also mammals and live only 2 years

No, the batteries in laptops, tablets and phones are NOT exactly the same as the ones in EVs. Lithium ion is just a generic name for multiple different batteries.

Our electronic devices most often use LCO chemistry which is known to be energy dense but shorter lifespan. Where as EVs tend to use NCA, NMC and LFP chemistry and in some rare cases LTO. These chemistry are less energy dense, but have longer lifespan, especially LFP and LTO. LTO can easily last 50+ years

On top of that, there are other things that kill your battery in a laptop, tablets and phones. Things like:

1. EV batteries have thermal management systems that keep the battery cool. The #1 reason for laptop battery failure is the heat. It is why it sucks so much they stopped making removable laptop batteries, because you can easily triple the life of your battery of you take it out when using the laptop in desktop mode. This is also why Nissan Leaf has been famous for having batteries die early, cause they refuse to include a passive liquid coolant

To compare it to ICE cars, try running your ICE engine without coolant and see how long it lasts. If you are unlucky, your engine could break within minutes. That is what laptops, tablets and phones are, engines running without coolant. They just don't get hot enough to break within minutes, but they get hot enough that the heat causes cracks lowering the lifespan of the battery

2. Batteries lifespan also depends a lot on how you cycle them, for laptops, tablets, and phones we are all used to deep cycling them, for EVs you rarely deep cycle them as you often times recharge when you get home. Best practice is to charge to around 80% unless you are going on a long trip

3. When a battery is set to 100%, it isn't actually 100%. Most set their 100% at 80-95%. Many laptop, tablet and phone manufacturers intentionally set your battery to be a higher percent which gives you longer lifespan upfront but it suffers from bigger degradation. That is because they want you to buy a new one, so called "planned obsolescence". Most come with 1 year warranty, and if you read the fine print, many often say they only give 6 month warranty on the battery!

In comparison, EVs set far more conservative numbers, because the batteries have 8-10 years warranty. So they do whatever it takes to insure the battery lasts longer than 8-10 years

The problem with these "case studies" is that we all have owned laptops, tablets and phones.  The car batteries are EXACTLY THE SAME as those devices.  And we all know that after 3 years the battery is DOA. I'll take first hand experience over propaganda any day.

Renewables make 30% of energy, according to FERC.

Renewables accounted for 94.23% of all new generating capacity added during the month of May.

The trend is renewables moving forward. Coal and other dirty sources are on a trajectory for replacement within 10-15 years at current pace.

Total electricity use by EVs through February 2024 was 1.58 million megawatt hours (MWh), compared with 1.04 million MWh during the same period in 2023, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).





That 52% rise in EV electricity use from early 2023 exceeded the 40% growth rate posted in 2023 from January-February 2022, and indicates that the impact from rapidly expanding EV sales continues to increase in electricity markets.Estimates suggest the U.S. will need an additional 15 to 27 terawatt hours of electricity by 2050 Domestic electricity demand in 2022 is expected to increase up to 18% by 2030 and 38% by 2035, according to an analysis by the Rapid Energy About 60% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 19% was from nuclear energy, and about 21% was from renewable energy sources

Quote from: O on July 19, 2024, 23:29:35I've owned my board for over 5 years and the battery has suffered a degradation of 0% since I got it, and is powered by a 160lb carbon based battery (me). It also has infinite range and never needs to be plugged in. I have a regular longboard.

Well then, you can then go tell your family that you are a 160lb carbon based battery and that you have infinite range, so they can save some money by not giving you any food and that they can put you to work 24/7 without any rest or sleep. You also don't suffer any degradation from age or overwork

Are you really ready to be a 160lb carbon based battery with infinite range that never needs to be plugged in?

Quote from: Naysayer on July 20, 2024, 16:37:43I'm a true tech geek and the one thing that most people forget is that a vast majority of Countries use fossil fuels to generate power so end of line EVs seem clean but never will eliminate the
Carbon footprint and environmental damage that producing EVs have done to Mother Earth. ICEs are so efficient now that a hybrid would be much better solution in the short term as battery technology catches up with infrastructures and power generation such as nuclear or fusion energy as best alternative. So engineers put your noses to the grindstone. A new technology needs to be developed! Just saying!

For a tech geek you sure know nothing about technology. Sure, the majority of countries electricity is fossil fuel based, but even then a powerplant+EV is much more efficient. On a US grid the break even is about a year in terms of footprint and as EV supply chain and manufacturing becomes more efficient, platform becomes more EV optimized, and grid gets cleaner the footprint gap gets smaller and smaller

A hybrid is only a better option in terms of footprint if you have a grid powered by 100% coal which these days is very little places. That isn't to say there is no room for hybrids here and there, especially plugin hybrids. But that doesn't get in the way of having BEVs which suite the majority just fine already (just cost needs to come down)

The biggest barrier right now is economies of scale, not technology. The tech is already there. And you only get to economies of scale through mass production

PS Nuclear fission is too expensive, and practical commercial nuclear fusion is a good 100 years away. They aren't needed anyways, the grid only needs to grow 1% a year to facilitate EVs

Get ready for a bunch of poor use grammar and punctuation . I could care less how intelligent you think I am. I am a professional equipment servicer for the past 35 years and I've been around EVS for about 50 years not including the electric mini bikes and go karts I had as a kid. Lead acid and a Bosch Volkswagen starter would kick the seat of any brand new Montgomery Ward Mini bike that dared take me on.. I have hated Big Oil since I was pushing my car in a gas line every other day to get five gallons in the 70s. So cut to now, every time Big Oil finds five more reasons to screw us a few more people stray in the dream of releasing their grip on our balls. Well those of us that have them. This article brings out just regurgitates every ridiculous argument like, oh there's not enough available in the pack I might want to drive 500 miles today, oh it's got a long tailpipe and the power company still has to burn fossil fuel to make it happen, on and on and on. Seriously live in the middle of nowhere and drive a thousand miles a day to work. Just drop trying to convince everybody else that it doesn't work for them. And by the way I don't care if you're great grandchildren can't breathe, it's obvious you don't. Just save the BS for somebody else that wants to swallow it. I drive what used to be a good vehicle and is now complicated disposable junk manufactured by Toyota. Ask me how I know? I did all the service on all of our service trucks and Toyota went to garbage in a 1983.5. If somebody would make a reasonable small electric truck it would be in my hands. So whenever they jack up oil I drive the truck less. I use it for no personal driving anymore. I use my electric lithium scooter which has been Flawless every day for me for 2 years now and I use it for work at least 6 to 8 Miles. Nights and weekends I drive my electric car which is old old school. It used to be junk lead acid and is now lithium. My gas bill reduced by several hundred dollars a year. If I go up to the grocery store and Shop and come back in the electric it costs me 8 cents to refill it to 80%. I have a KW hour meter on the home charger and I know how to do math so save it. Recharging stations will be the ultimate end of the efficiency and inexpensive operation with an electric vehicle . Big Oil will be dispensing your electricity to you and at this point right now that 8-cent recharge at an Electrify America station would cost me about 40 cents. Lithiums are reliable. I simply do not keep the them chock-full and I do not run them down flat. I leave them in the middle and they are extremely reliable. Now don't get me wrong, The Tesla is a fine machine but it is a fine machine for the wealthy. Still no reasonable small 200 MI range car for the masses. Oh yes check that there are but they are not allowed in the United States. Besides nobody in their right mind and any other Nation on this planet would stack $40,000 worth of cameras screens and garbage in in order to make it cost $60 to 80k. A disposable vehicle for 80 to $100,000? Seriously everyone has got something to learn. Cars do not need to be spaceships and anybody that builds spaceships and cars is obviously going to hand you one that is decked out like the bridge on Star trek. At the end of it all I just must point out everybody writing here must be very unusual, nobody keeps a car here longer than 2 to 4 years so what the heck do you care what kind of a lifespan anything has. They're all disposable and they should be priced accordingly. So there you go the old EV nutty fart tosses out the rant. Everybody used to call me ahead of the Curve. Now they won't even turn their head and their eyeballs just lean sideways to look at what I'm rolling in.

Quote from: Bill on July 20, 2024, 19:01:48Hi when a writer uses made up words, I don't trust the story. To quote "it is still more than sufficiently performant for daily use." Performant is not a word.
It also reflects badly on notebookchat who clearly either doesn't care or doesn't read what they post.

It is jargon, pretty standard to use jargon in any language.

Definition:  Capable of or characterized by an adequate or excellent level of performance or efficiency.

Quote from: Bill on July 20, 2024, 19:01:48Hi when a writer uses made up words, I don't trust the story. To quote "it is still more than sufficiently performant for daily use." Performant is not a word.
It also reflects badly on notebookchat who clearly either doesn't care or doesn't read what they post.

"Performant" is a word. Please buy a dictionary before you try to discredit people on the internet, Bill.

Hi when a writer uses made up words, I don't trust the story. To quote "it is still more than sufficiently performant for daily use." Performant is not a word.
It also reflects badly on notebookchat who clearly either doesn't care or doesn't read what they post.

I'm a true tech geek and the one thing that most people forget is that a vast majority of Countries use fossil fuels to generate power so end of line EVs seem clean but never will eliminate the
Carbon footprint and environmental damage that producing EVs have done to Mother Earth. ICEs are so efficient now that a hybrid would be much better solution in the short term as battery technology catches up with infrastructures and power generation such as nuclear or fusion energy as best alternative. So engineers put your noses to the grindstone. A new technology needs to be developed! Just saying!

You should consider yourself LUCKY. Iwas an early adopter of Tesla being number 1274~, and when I got rid of car 11 years later (this past January), with around 105k miles was on THIRD battery pak, and even that was only accepting about an 85% charge.

I bought a 2019 model 3 and put about 80k miles on it. I have about 6% battery degradation and have replaced the tires 2x and filled the washer fluid about 10x. That's it, I thought I would need to replace the wiper blades but haven't needed to do that. I asked a mechanic to measure the break pads to see when I needed to replace those and they have about 90% of the original material left. I drive in the snow, but I have to say our summers are not that hot.

We also super charge it twice a month.

Quote from: Romeo on July 18, 2024, 21:37:28

Quote from: Denis Y on July 18, 2024, 19:54:55MY friend who got a 2014 Tesla S just have her battery replaced for $19,000 at dealership.  ONly got 68k+ miles on it.

That just sounds like a poor understanding of how Li-Ion battery works and 0 care taken by owner. Keeping it plugged in at 100% is what would do that to the battery specially if it is rarely run.

I found that out on my first electric skateboard, always plugged unless I would take it for a ride. I could see the degradation with every ride, from 8 miles when new to about 3.5 miles after 7 months. My current skateboard has a home made battery with a range of 42 miles. Degradation over the 3 years I had it, is 3% so far.

I've owned my board for over 5 years and the battery has suffered a degradation of 0% since I got it, and is powered by a 160lb carbon based battery (me). It also has infinite range and never needs to be plugged in. I have a regular longboard.

Devil's advocate:

Have a 2000 Honda Civic.  It wins no awards in power, acceleration, technology.  Spent $1500 in 2017 for it used, one owner.  It burns oil, so we put in a quart every month or so.  Normal filter changes.  Takes 10 minutes. Gas is something like $600-$800/year.  There isn't one EV charger between work/home, the vast majority of our use of the car. We don't have home charger(obviously)

In the space of that purchase it has gotten us to every destination.  Had a new clutch a few years ago.

Now, at the same time, I have some stock that I own that I *could* have gone out and bought an EV with.  I've been very, very close to doing so.  Every time, though, I think about selling that stock, I scratch my head and reconsider, because the car just works.

The stock, not to be a braggart, has gone up significantly.  Enough now to buy pretty much any EV on the market right now.  I'd have faster acceleration!  I'd have cool new tech (most of which gets in the way of driving, which I rather enjoy!)  I like technology, also, I just feel a lot of the technology out today...gets in the way of the experience!

So, not getting a new car has vastly improved my quality of life.  I know this isn't typical of technology sites, to praise not getting technology, I'm just saying that there is an entire different perspective where people live and are happy with what they already own, as well as it may not always be financially a good idea to just spend money on whatever appeals to the frontal lobe of your brain.