QuoteWhat about the massive subsidies and loans the US manufacturers enjoy from the US government?

The subsidies are kinda legal - as long as they are meant for the local market. Loans are also legal because one does have to repay them. Whet is illegal but difficult to prove are government grants. Those are mostly given out to develop something. Airbus and Embraer have been sued because they have developed planes using government grants and later sold those plains in international markets thus gaining unfair advantage.
But China is alleged to have given out direct payouts for every exported EV. And this is super illegal though difficult to prove.

Knowing a little bit about the Russian language and racism...  "Build Your Dreams" or "BYD" is what the company wants to be called? BUT, that's not what it says on the vehicle itself. It displays, "3YD" on the front of the vehicle. In the Russian language the letter "3" is representative of "Z". Taking this knowledge into account, the vehicle really displays the wording of "ZYD". This word, is considered 'pejorative'. A word expressing a negative or a disrespectful connotation, a low opinion, or a lack of respect toward someone or something. This word, "3YD", for JEW in Russian, is out-right, anti semitism.

And how often do these chinese EVs spontaneously combust which is later coveted up the the CCP and families of everyone involved disappear?

Quote from: Ian on May 12, 2024, 11:40:44When Chinese car companies have massive subsidies from the Chinese government what do you expect

What about the massive subsidies and loans the US manufacturers enjoy from the US government?

Quote from: anan on May 13, 2024, 13:39:57This 100% tariff is just for show. There are currently no chinese EV imports with the 25% tariff. However cheep they make them they cannot overcome the current tax and lack of subsidies.
But I do agree that we need cheaper EVs. And Tesla will not make them without a viable competitor. They could introduce model 2 but without a competitor in this segment they have no incentive to. They would cannibalize into their current sales. For many - Tesla is their second car and they would settle for a cheaper, smaller one.

Tesla has no choice but to release a cheaper Model 2. They are already the best selling cars in their class which means that there is little room to grow. They are already seeing it. They need more car options, and not the cybertruck

I guess the environment and consumer needs will have to take a back seat to American corporate profit margins.  Obviously cheaper EV's mean faster consumer integration into the market.
On a positive note we needn't worry about saving the planet because humans will probably be an endangered species long before the planet is damaged beyond the point of being able to sustain life. We are physiologically speaking a weak species. No fur, not fast, not strong, no claws, etc. Other species will outlast us.

This 100% tariff is just for show. There are currently no chinese EV imports with the 25% tariff. However cheep they make them they cannot overcome the current tax and lack of subsidies.
But I do agree that we need cheaper EVs. And Tesla will not make them without a viable competitor. They could introduce model 2 but without a competitor in this segment they have no incentive to. They would cannibalize into their current sales. For many - Tesla is their second car and they would settle for a cheaper, smaller one.

Quote from: Tesla on May 12, 2024, 18:30:57We need more options for consumers.  Plenty of US car companies made outlandish profits in China for the past 40 years but now that China have capable auto makers you shut the door out of fear.  How capitalistic and unfair.

To be fair, it was a "give and take". US automakers made a lot of profit in China, but China required the US automakers to form joint ventures with Chinese companies and hand over all their technology to the Chinese companies. And since it is a joint venture, they made half the profit as well

Quote from: RAZAK ABBAS on May 12, 2024, 21:46:39We have a problem here. How do you expect people making minimum wage of $15 or $20 per hour to buy cars made by people making over $40 per hour? It's difficult. I bet the Chinese auto manufacturers aren't paying their workers over $10 per hour.And so, with their government subsidies coupled with low wages, they could sell their EV cars cheaply and still make profits. Then, why the European and American manufacturers couldn't find a way to tackle this short of slapping massive tariffs on Chinese cars.This could be stifling the free flow of world trade. The poor consumers pay and American and their European counterparts continue with their merry old and tired bad ways.

That isn't really an issue, workers make up a small % of the cost of a car. And people on minimum wage are likely buying used cars anyways, not new

In the end, car manufacturing is about mass production at scale. You have to build a platform which costs a billion dollars, then build cars on top that platform, build supply chain, build factory tooling. Which means you need to produce a lot of cars on the same platform to reduce the fixed cost per car,

To date, other than the Chinese and Tesla, not a single automaker is producing even 100k EVs, and some of these have 2-3 platforms

And that is really the big issue, many of the established automakers just did a lot of talking but nothing to back up their talk. None of them put any serious effort to scaling EVs, they just kept them around to claim they did while focusing on their ICE cars. They didn't want EVs to be too successful

As for China, they had little established automakers to begin with and gladly jumped all in during the gap

We have a problem here. How do you expect people making minimum wage of $15 or $20 per hour to buy cars made by people making over $40 per hour? It's difficult. I bet the Chinese auto manufacturers aren't paying their workers over $10 per hour.And so, with their government subsidies coupled with low wages, they could sell their EV cars cheaply and still make profits. Then, why the European and American manufacturers couldn't find a way to tackle this short of slapping massive tariffs on Chinese cars.This could be stifling the free flow of world trade. The poor consumers pay and American and their European counterparts continue with their merry old and tired bad ways.

Tesla will still outsmart the market....even though competitiveness is getting hotter

Not certain on a specific angle here. On the one hand, China is an adversary. They've demonstrated and been extremely vocal about retaking Taiwan. On the other hand, US consumers can get enough of Chinese made goods. Walmart, Amazon, Best Buy keep it flowing nicely. Apple, 100% solvent and one of the most valued companies in the world, refuse to pass down reasonable savings to its consumers with most of their products manufactured in China. While Tesla held the singular torch for EV's and was crème de la crème, they face stiffer competition from the other big 3. Fact is, the EV market at the price point most continue to hinge on, it is still out of reach for many consumers. At $35k, even the Nissan Leaf is extravagant for running to the grocery store or back and forth to work. I'd say all this has some to do with National Security and the rest of it, the US can't compete. If BYD turns out to be equitable and more practical than American made, Wall Street will have the final word. The threat of disrupting US auto makers is real. We could make a cheaper EV but why? Makes no sense.

We need more options for consumers.  Plenty of US car companies made outlandish profits in China for the past 40 years but now that China have capable auto makers you shut the door out of fear.  How capitalistic and unfair.

When Chinese car companies have massive subsidies from the Chinese government what do you expect

Commies are beating us at our own game.  What a bunch losers the US has become

Cry.. Call papa.
Cisco lost papa ban...
And now Tesla lost call papa.. Ban
Always same style.. Never learn...