Quote from: A on April 12, 2024, 10:05:10You can get a Tesla Model 3 or Y today for around 39k fyi. Average new car is going for 47k so it is actually quite competitive these days.

Appreciate the correction but still too much imo. I guess you're right comparatively speaking it is competitive to euro luxury brands (bmw, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, etc)

Just pissed that there's still no decent budget (12k-16k) EV's that exist. The few that do kinda suck. There seems to be more competitively priced EV's coming from China but due to sanctions doubt they're coming to western markets with any real availability anytime soon.

Not that JDM cars are any better in pricing these days but it's just I know if I get a 25 year old Lexus hybrid later on in life, it will just work with minimal repair or maintenance.

I don't honestly know if the same can be said regarding pure EV's or Tesla. Do or will they've any value anymore after 15 years?

Also, is 39k starting or including upgrades? If starting I doubt anyone spends that kinda money for base model and from what I hear Tesla upgrades are like apple pricing and they charge for everything little thing, which is why I said probably closer to 50k+ initially.

Quote from: NikoB on April 11, 2024, 13:00:29Electric cars today are a 100% unprofitable business, without subsidies from taxpayers.

And now every day I read how capitalists stand with outstretched hands for subsidies from the federal government in the USA (even in the IT industry) and it gives them to them, violating the basic principle of capitalism - the weak must perish.

All cars are an unprofitable business without tax payer subsidies. Most governments give subsidies to major businesses in their countries to keep manufacturing and supply chains home. A typical car, human labor costs is just 7%. Companies aren't outsourcing because they feel human labor is cheaper in Mexico or China. They seek places that lets them have the biggest benefits, most of which I like to call "factory dumping" where you let 3rd parties build factories for you, then when those factories aren't needed anymore you dump them and find another 3rd party. This lets you have the profit while outsourcing the risk

To offset the loss of local jobs, countries give out tons of subsidies to insure you retain the supply chain. It is a form of national security

Quote from: Realitycheck on April 12, 2024, 09:46:55Tesla don't even address massive segments of the population. They're not even in the game for most people. Most people are not buying 50k-60k cars.

Not saying I am a fan of Toyota's price increases either when Corolla's are costing 30k. But if Tesla is serious about any "world domination" they need to have a model that's on the market for < 25k new. And on used market for < 13k. Then we can start having discussions of how "nobody comes close to touching Tesla".

You can get a Tesla Model 3 or Y today for around 39k fyi. Average new car is going for 47k so it is actually quite competitive these days.

Quote from: Spritely on April 11, 2024, 12:40:06As for Toyota FSD, good luck with that!

Do they really need to work on that when openpilot is currently best supported on modern Toyota's (and Hyundai's)?

Quote from: Alexk on April 12, 2024, 01:14:52some day in the near future they will have a product better than Tesla.

I don't understand, why do Tesla loyalists / fans need to defend their dear leaders actions?

Tesla don't even address massive segments of the population. They're not even in the game for most people. Most people are not buying 50k-60k cars.

Not saying I am a fan of Toyota's price increases either when Corolla's are costing 30k. But if Tesla is serious about any "world domination" they need to have a model that's on the market for < 25k new. And on used market for < 13k. Then we can start having discussions of how "nobody comes close to touching Tesla".

Yet another YoYo article on how some day in the near future they will have a product better than Tesla.

Bottom line is they can't because there is not enough money in their business model to support the manufacturer and the STEALERSHIPS!

Think about it STEALERSHIPS get 80% of their revenue from service like oil changes that don't exist with electric cars.

Electric cars today are a 100% unprofitable business, without subsidies from taxpayers.

And now every day I read how capitalists stand with outstretched hands for subsidies from the federal government in the USA (even in the IT industry) and it gives them to them, violating the basic principle of capitalism - the weak must perish.

This reads like yet another Toyota press release, full of dubious claims lacking in any detail. Let's not forget who has been busy lobbying to weaken emissions standards for the last decade.

As for Toyota FSD, good luck with that!