Quote from: anan on March 13, 2024, 09:23:15ATM the prices on new EVs in China might be artificially low because of high inventory and low demand. So these prices might not last.

There were 8 million EVs sold in China in 2023, or about 30% of total car sales. EVs are selling well there and sales continue to grow. Everything is about economies of scale, the more you build something the cheaper it gets. Why do you think Ford discontinued the Ford Focus despite it selling over 100k cars a year? Because you need more than that, you need multiple cars sharing the same platform each selling way over 100k to make a profit, gas or electric.

QuoteAnd least we forget - Chinese cars have rather poor quality. There are a lot of horror stories about breakdowns. And a lot of videos of buyers shouting at dealers to fix their cars or take them back.
This will not fly in US with it's lemon laws, class action lawsuits.
If someone brings Chinese cars into US market they will choose a higher end/pricier model. Most likely a compact SUV with targeted price just below Model Ys.

The thing is, the cars sold to the Chinese market are not the same kind as the ones sold to international market. This is why the ones sold internationally have a much higher cost despite the same name

PS EU has much tougher consumer protection than US does and they are in the EU market. But EU, EVs are over 20% of car sales, while US is like 8%. So they aren't in a hurry

Since when is the job of government to suppress competition?

The USA makers complain they can't build cheap evs. So time to suppress others that can?

ATM the prices on new EVs in China might be artificially low because of high inventory and low demand. So these prices might not last.
Moreover no Chinese manufacturer will import cars to US with the current 25% tariff. It just does not make sense economically. There is a market for these cars elsewhere without the tariff.
The only inroad into US is through a new Mexico factory for BYD. And that is ways off. And cars produced there will be more expensive when it comes online.
And least we forget - Chinese cars have rather poor quality. There are a lot of horror stories about breakdowns. And a lot of videos of buyers shouting at dealers to fix their cars or take them back.
This will not fly in US with it's lemon laws, class action lawsuits.
If someone brings Chinese cars into US market they will choose a higher end/pricier model. Most likely a compact SUV with targeted price just below Model Ys.

Quote from: Graham on March 12, 2024, 12:02:38America needs to learn how to compete.
It's current competition rules are :
1. Huge tarrifs
2. If rule 1 fails, start a war

I will remind you that the reason why US put tariffs on Chinese cars was because China put tariffs on American cars first. China required that car manufacturers either form a joint venture with a Chinese company to produce locally, or face huge import tariffs. Through this method, China pretty much stole most of the automotive technology as car companies formed joint ventures with Chinese companies for the sake of short term profit

The problem in North America that plagues the industry is not the cost of technology or parts its the cost of LABOUR. unions and their disgusting greed is why the big three can't compete. It is the workers GREED and the UNIONS POWER that make vehicles so outrageously priced. You all want to make big bucks at a factory do nothing job, well those are the consequences. Greed and Unions are the issues that need to be addressed

If Henry Ford did it, why not China similarly?

Double standard, of course.

The world accepted Ford products, but won't accept any from China.

New style of HYPOCRISY?

Ironically the capitalism leader of world is afraid of competition.  It is not thinking of ways to compete, but set up walls to protection.

America needs to learn how to compete.
It's current competition rules are :
1. Huge tarrifs
2. If rule 1 fails, start a war

It seems to me that EVs have had an artificial premium added to their price to pay for re tooling factories.
Fair enough in the short term but a small city car like the BYD Seagull should be able to be made and sold below £15000. In the UK petrol city cars are sold for below £15000. If Governments want to get rid of polluting cars in our towns and cities they need to encourage cheap EVs.

I will note that the price in China is not going to be the price in US/EU. That is because US/EU has higher safety standards than China. So even if they go by the same name, they will have changes in them to reflect the safety standards

So far, outside of China first number I've seen is $20,100 for the short range and $23,200 for the long range

That said, it is still a pretty good price and expect EVs to continue getting cheaper and cheaper

Quote from: Bkb on March 10, 2024, 23:46:20The cost of vehicle can be reduced by state owned enterprise but if the local authorities place a strong regulatory requirements as a clearance for sale of vehicles inland. That is the only way one is going to slow down state owned or state financed firms from dumping products overseas. Firs.of the requirement should only allow EV firms to store the data collected from cars in land. Any AI model training to achieve autonomous driving should be done onshore. There should not be any car information or user information that should move out of the country. 

There is also a need to form a department, EV mgmt, to oversee all firmware upgrades and software data collection points.  And prior to firmware release the manufacturer should get no issue certification.

In the event of compromised safety on cars or user data breach the entire management and the personnel involved in decision making from the car manufacturers firm should face trial inland. Car sold in the US should , trial in the US.

Why should this be limited to EVs only? Are you saying it is okay if ICE cars spy on you? why limit it to only EVs?

Though I wonder why people even car about that, I mean how much personal information does your car have? I'd imagine your made in china computer and smartphone carries way more of your personal information than a car

QuoteAnd last of the requirement should put the brakes on cheap EV imports, post the cars useful life the EV battery should be shipped back to the manufacturing country (Origin of production); with no clear disposal policy for car batteries one has to come up with an innovative solution if not send it to space as one way journey.

We are in the early stages of EV life stages and manufacturers are clearly not looking into battery disposal. That in my opinion poses a greater threat to the natural resources.

In US, the warranty on EV drivetrains and battery is 8-10 years. Not to mention the LFP chemistry often used by China is known to be long lasting of 20+ years

As for manufacturers not looking into disposal, not sure where you get that idea. Most already have recycle programs for their batteries, be it in-house or through 3rd party.

Recycling batteries has only been a problem for small electronics, for large batteries like cars in quantity it wasn't really an issue

And with IRA giving tax credits for recycling them, plus counting it towards domestic content requirements. There is even more benefit to recycle them. EU also set a requirement that all batteries must contain at minimum 4% recycled material and all batteries must be clearly labeled for recycling. 4% may not seem like a large amount, but it insures that everyone is thinking about it and builds infrastructure in place. As that % requirement is going to grow

The cost of vehicle can be reduced by state owned enterprise but if the local authorities place a strong regulatory requirements as a clearance for sale of vehicles inland. That is the only way one is going to slow down state owned or state financed firms from dumping products overseas. Firs.of the requirement should only allow EV firms to store the data collected from cars in land. Any AI model training to achieve autonomous driving should be done onshore. There should not be any car information or user information that should move out of the country. 

There is also a need to form a department, EV mgmt, to oversee all firmware upgrades and software data collection points.  And prior to firmware release the manufacturer should get no issue certification.

In the event of compromised safety on cars or user data breach the entire management and the personnel involved in decision making from the car manufacturers firm should face trial inland. Car sold in the US should , trial in the US.

And last of the requirement should put the brakes on cheap EV imports, post the cars useful life the EV battery should be shipped back to the manufacturing country (Origin of production); with no clear disposal policy for car batteries one has to come up with an innovative solution if not send it to space as one way journey.

We are in the early stages of EV life stages and manufacturers are clearly not looking into battery disposal. That in my opinion poses a greater threat to the natural resources.

Amen,RogerRabbit.

This is about protecting unions, not the American Consumer.  If free competition is allowed the US Big 3 can't possibly survive. Tesla maybe until the union gets them too.

Isn't this capitalism at its best? I make a product that the masses prefer and in the process wipe out competitors? What's the problem? The hypocrisy kills me.

Batteries are suppose to be cheap. Only the Japanese makes you think batteries are expensive & makes you pay high cost for a punny piece of battery. I save so much monthly by driving EV. No more frequent engine oil mentenance. No more expensive gearbox maintenance which gives you the headache despite maintenance. Traditional ICE manufacturers don't want you to use EV cause they will all fold without you paying the costly maintenance to support their business.

Nono  , bring the BYD 9700 cars in to the us Biden . You want the change to electric from ice, there You are. Wake up the big 3 over here or dump them . You want electric here's your chance to get started. Let's see if luxury ice people will switch. All the folks You want driving ev can probably afford 9700 and go from there. The whole country of u.s.  working class will buy them, wake up or stay ice. No way will the population pay 20k+ to go ev. When a nice used ice is less than 5k.