If I can't get the special edition. With upgraded everything. I might as well fall over and use sidewalk caulk.

Quote from: mkp on October 31, 2023, 13:27:45Nobody designs an efficient system and then ruins everything for some emulation, nonsense. When the PC Arm market grows sufficiently, software producers will make native compilations of their programs and this will be a process extended over time and who knows, maybe in the near future Intel itself will finally abandon the x86 architecture, making things simpler?

Quote from: mkp on October 31, 2023, 13:27:45Nobody designs an efficient system and then ruins everything for some emulation, nonsense. When the PC Arm market grows sufficiently, software producers will make native compilations of their programs and this will be a process extended over time and who knows, maybe in the near future Intel itself will finally abandon the x86 architecture, making things simpler?

Umm how do you think Apple made the jump from PowerPC to Intel, then Intel to ARM??

Exactly by providing an emulation layer, that allowed Intel binaries to run on ARM. You are underestimating how effective this can work, most Intel binaries run faster on my M1 Pro,than my old i7 Pro, go figure!

I dont believe Window RT (the last Arm version) had this, and is the reason it failed, simply put.. nobody brought one, cause it had no software.. then nobosy made the software, as nobody owned one.. chicken and egg scenario.

Your correct though, developers will need to begin building directly for the ARM architecture,  but that takes time, and this layer provides a stop-gap.

Quote from: Open Your Eyes on October 31, 2023, 00:51:57"x86 OEM's doing well with battery life"? Please pass me what you're smoking, I wanna try it! Z1 Extreme devices such as the ROG Ally are getting 51 min of battery life. The Odin 2 (Snapdragon 8 Gen 2) gets almost 4 hours under heavy load.

Check LG UltraPC 16, reviewed here. One of the lowest price for 16'' notebook and better battery life than MacBooks with Apple Silicon - 17 hours :)

Quote from: mkp on October 31, 2023, 13:27:45and who knows, maybe in the near future Intel itself will finally abandon the x86 architecture, making things simpler?

Intel abandoned x86 back in the 90s - all modern x86 Intel/AMD processors are RISC cores and a hardware-software translator of x86 code into their microinstructions.
So no one will be able to make an x86 emulator faster than Intel/AMD. Giving up an old code base always means burning bridges and losing code of incredible value and billions of man-hours of intellectual work. Giving up this will be very long and painful. But I welcome new players, since competition is the engine of progress.

Battery, lightness for office work, seeing movies and listening music in complete silence.
This should be objective.

I will probably be holding buying an office laptop until i get feedback from this. I was already considering buying a better tablet. So now for 2024 i have 3 options:

X86 office PC
Android Tablet with 6/8GB memory class and 500-600 nits screen and a bluetooth keyboard when necessary
ARM Office PC

Nobody designs an efficient system and then ruins everything for some emulation, nonsense. When the PC Arm market grows sufficiently, software producers will make native compilations of their programs and this will be a process extended over time and who knows, maybe in the near future Intel itself will finally abandon the x86 architecture, making things simpler?

I'll probably repeat myself - we need hardware translation of x86 to ARM. Until it's done - these laptops will be a niche product for early adopters and tech enthusiasts. They can be fine for office usage, but I think they will be too pricy for that. People hold to Windows mostly because of two reasons: games and graphics software. And I don't think that these CPUs will shine there with all these software x86 emulation layers.

Surely all that performance will not be cheap. There are bargain bin x86 laptops. Lots of on sale items from previous generations. If we assume they can reach a performance level of an 'i7'/R7, have a device that is 20% thinner and battery life that is 50% longer. Would that sway the masses? I would certainly consider it for a non-primary device like a tablet. But I think features will matter the most: will 'legacy' apps run smoothly, will it support Android apps.

Quote from: George on October 30, 2023, 17:45:15IMHO: Win-on-ARM seems to be a product looking for a market. Why would someone purchase one of these devices over a Intel or AMD powered device?

The first argument might be cost however both Intel and AMD offer very inexpensive platforms.

The second argument might be battery life and again here the x86 OEM's have a number of platforms that do well in this regard.

Inexpensive platforms? What planet are you living on? Even phones these days are costing $1500+. This isn't a x86 or arm specific problem, everything has gotten ridiculously priced these days.

"x86 OEM's doing well with battery life"? Please pass me what you're smoking, I wanna try it! Z1 Extreme devices such as the ROG Ally are getting 51 min of battery life. The Odin 2 (Snapdragon 8 Gen 2) gets almost 4 hours under heavy load.

I think it's fair to say, unless they're specialized, "most users" don't care about the vast majority of legacy x86 applications. I mean probably a majority of people, especially with Office 365 or whatever it's called today, live in the browser now. And I think we all know what kind of crusty apps people are forced to use that don't get timely updates, the type that people are outright afraid of having to re-install.

I thought though that Notebookcheck recognized the value of making sure Linux can run on these chips. It makes for a more open, competitive, innovative platform where the user is not locked in. I think it makes a difference when outlets with an audience mention cross OS compatibility, so please keep it in mind.

So Qualcomm has a interesting take on a multicore SOC here - all 'performance' cores and with impressive performance numbers as well. (of course missing here is actual battery life numbers from real products)

IMHO: Win-on-ARM seems to be a product looking for a market. Why would someone purchase one of these devices over a Intel or AMD powered device?

The first argument might be cost however both Intel and AMD offer very inexpensive platforms.

The second argument might be battery life and again here the x86 OEM's have a number of platforms that do well in this regard.

In my mind the only argument that holds any water is the possible compatibility with countless inexpensive ARM/Android applications (and games).

Granted, Win-on-ARM will never likely get Xbox or Steam support so you'll never (or rarely) be able to play AAA games on the device.

Forgetting for the moment that mostly only Console and handheld gamers have any expectation of playing games on a iGPU in the first place, iGPU's included in SOC's have been getting much better of late and Qualcomm might have a equally usable offering.

However as mentioned while x86 WIN is compatible with decades of x86 applications the Win-on-ARM 'desktop application' offerings is rather limited.

IMHO: the entire concept might simply be Microsofts attempt to offer something to counter the Apple/M possibility of running MacOS&iOS apps on the same device.