and that the BIOS allows to set the APU's VRAM much higher than say 256MB or 512MB
Some/many? support the allocation of 4GB or 8GB of RAM to the iGPU as its VRAM. The setting is sometimes called UMA Frame Buffer Size. If your notebook doesn't support such values (I'd prefer 8GB, not only 4GB), I would not buy such a notebook.

But make sure the RAM is dual channel (something like 2x16GB 5600MHz CL38 or better CL) (2x8GB isn't that good because some of it will be split between the iGPU and OS) and that the BIOS allows to set the APU's VRAM much higher than say 256MB or 512MB, as 512MB VRAM would be just laughable.

Quote from: NikoB on June 04, 2023, 10:42:23I'm just a sane expert who understands that all "gaming" laptops are essentially nonsense, invented by marketers. Waste of money.

[..]

Correct, the same gaming performance in a desktop form-factor can be get at only like 0.5 to 0.2 the price or 2 to 5 times the performance for the same money. And, assuming one plays modern games which are GPU-bound (=no need to update the CPU after on next generation), one can simply exchange the GPU for like 600 bucks (say a RX 7800 (XT) 16GB VRAM). This kind of performance in a notebook equals roughly to a 4090 Mobile (and also 16GB VRAM) and the cheapest notebook with it costs 3200 (since it's the cheapest notebook, one should verify that the 4090 Mobile is not power limited), this is 5 times more expensive for same performance! I play on a desktop PC btw.

A gaming notebook is, neither here, not there: Too heavy to be truly mobile and too expensive for what kind of gaming performance one gets. Better: APU-only notebook like a Ryzen 7040 Phoenix APU (its APU can still play many games at 720p high to very high and 1080p mid to high settings) + desktop PC for gaming at home and freedom from disturbance.

The HDMI Forum allows calling any HDMI 2.0 port HDMI 2.1 now (true HDMI 2.1 is called HDMI 2.1a). So what's the bandwidth of these HDMI 2.1 ports?
I want to connect a LG OLED C3 42" to watch 4K60Hz HDR content and use full/normal 4:4:4 chroma. This requires 15.68 Gbit/s: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Refresh_frequency_limits_for_HDR10_video, which the HDMI 2.0 can NOT provide.

This is how one calculates this value btw:
15.68 Gbit/s (15.678432 -> 15.68) = ((3840+80)*(2160+62)*3*10*1*60)/10^9.
* 3 is bits per pixel
* 10 -> 10 bit (required for HDR)
* 1 -> full 444 chroma (for 422 use 2/3 and for 420 use 1/2)
* 60 means 60 Hz
* +80 and +62 come from the CVT-R2 timing format

For full 120Hz 10bit HDR 444chroma 32.27 Gbit/s are required.
((3840+80)*(2160+127)*3*10*(1)*120)/10^9 -> 32.27 Gbit/s.
HDMI 2.1 FRL4 (32G) can only do 104.7 Hz in this case.
HDMI 2.1 FRL5 (40G) can do 129.3 Hz, so would be enough in this case.

Since with only 70.4 % % Display P3 coverage/no mini-LED option available, only 350 nits and of course the size in general, some may want to connect an OLED TV for true HDR experience, but unfortunately on the LENOVO Legion Pro 2021, 2022 and probably 2023 models, the HDMI output bandwidth doesn't reach the normal HDMI 2.1(a) speeds of 40-48 Gbit/s. There's a vBIOS (video/GPU BIOS) mod that may increase the bandwidth to 40 Gbit/s, but the warranty may be gone then.

Quote from: RNarayan73 on June 14, 2023, 23:51:52On the contrary, my Legion 7945HX CPU package power shows up 24W and 27W in Quiet and Balance Modes respectively. Hence my quandry in trying to figure out what's wrong and how I can deal with it.

Another buyer of L5Pro 2023 with 7745HX wrote that his laptop consumes about 8W at the processor level and about 15W in total. At least he claims so.

Of course, it's terrible that neither Intel nor AMD did not optimize consumption at rest, but we have what they offer us. This is an oligopoly. And there is no real competition in the sector.

Quote from: James H on June 15, 2023, 10:42:28I have one question, tt can not support PCIe 5.0 SSD?
As I know 7745HX support PCIe 5.0.

This is the shame of the AMD series - the processor consumes 45W less at the same speed as the 13980, which could be redistributed to a discrete gpu or 2 pci-e 5.0 SSD, but here another problem arises, which ordinary people usually do not know about due to technical illiteracy - the RAM bandwidth on x86 is terrible and loses to Apple's solution 3-6 times in 2023, but what's even worse - the memory controller of all the latest Zen3 (+) / Zen4 loses significantly to the Intel memory controller.

Therefore, installing a pci-e 5.0 ssd is pointless - each of them actually requires 1/6-/1/7 system memory bandwidth for themselves, which is a lot considering the requirements of other devices.

And another shameful fact that Jarrod is talking about - despite the fact that the 45 series has as many as 28 pci-e 5.0 lines (Intel is less clear, there are 4.0 / 5.0 in HX), NVidia 4 series discrete video cards are shamefully connected via slow pci -e 4.0 x8, not 16! Although in Intel with pci-e 3.0 they were previously connected via x16, while AMD was then connected via x8, i.e. Intel had a 2-fold advantage in terms of the speed of exchange with the video chip memory. Now, despite the fact that both solutions easily support pci-e 4.0 x16 (AMD is fully ready even for pci-e 5.0), they work in the shameful slow pci-e 4.0 x8.

Well, despite the fact that AMD has 28 pci-e 5.0 lines and does not have a built-in USB40 controller, as well as the TB4 controller is not in the Intel HX series, manufacturers meanly solder the TB4 controller to laptops with Intel HX series, but do not solder 2-4 controllers USB40, although even for 4 USB40 ports (2xTB5 in bandwidth when working in aggregation mode with risers to external eGPUs) only 4 pci-e 5.0 lines are required - and the 45 AMD series has as many as 20 in stock. Shame and vile greed of laptop manufacturers !!

I have one question, tt can not support PCIe 5.0 SSD?
As I know 7745HX support PCIe 5.0. :)
Thanks for cool review.

Quote from: NikoB on June 14, 2023, 21:58:20Unfortunately, the authors of the reviews in reality never give data purely on processor consumption at rest.

You are not the only one complaining that the results from the reviews do not correspond to the real total consumption, because. many processors at rest, alone, will often consume more than the entire system, which causes more and more distrust of the results. I have a lot of questions for them, but they don't change the way they present the data.

Thanks again @NikoB. It appears the figures in the reviews of the Asus laptops you shared above are idle power draws for the whole laptop.

However, the idle figures cited in the review of the CPUs 7945HX vs 13900HX below:
www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-9-7945HX-Analysis-Zen4-Dragon-Range-is-faster-and-more-efficient-than-Intel-Raptor-Lake-HX.705034.0.html
is actually the CPU Package Power (if you click the image showing the idle wattages) which stands lower at around 8.3W
www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/3/5/csm_7945hx_13900hx_idle_2407882839.jpg

That seems credible doesn't it?

On the contrary, my Legion 7945HX CPU package power shows up 24W and 27W in Quiet and Balance Modes respectively. Hence my quandry in trying to figure out what's wrong and how I can deal with it.

Quote from: Narayanan Ramachandran on June 14, 2023, 18:13:04AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX Analysis - Zen4 Dragon Range is faster and more efficient than Intel Raptor Lake-HX (sorry, as a new user, I can't seem to post links even to notebookcheck article

1.  notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Strix-G17-G713PI-Gaming-laptop-impresses-in-the-test-with-the-new-Ryzen-9.701633.0.html
15W Idle system summary
2. notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Strix-Scar-17-G733PY-laptop-review-Intel-is-no-longer-king.706291.0.html
14.5W Idle system summary
3. notebookcheck.net/Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-Duo-16-Notebook-Review-Multitasking-monster-with-AMD-Zen4-RTX-4090-Mini-LED.701152.0.html
19.2W Idle system summary.

Unfortunately, the authors of the reviews in reality never give data purely on processor consumption at rest.

You are not the only one complaining that the results from the reviews do not correspond to the real total consumption, because. many processors at rest, alone, will often consume more than the entire system, which causes more and more distrust of the results. I have a lot of questions for them, but they don't change the way they present the data.

Quote from: NikoB on June 14, 2023, 16:29:09

Quote from: RNarayan73 on June 13, 2023, 23:40:51tried some tweaks within Advanced Power Plan settings, e.g. setting Minimum Performance Limit to 5%, but nothing seems to work.

Set 1%.

In general, this is a clear problem for all laptops with AMD 45 series - apparently they have something wrong with the microcode for managing the optimization of core consumption in idle.

Intel also has serious problems with high idle consumption in Legion since 2023.

For both platforms, the consumption increased 3-4 times compared to the old series, where they consumed 2.4-3.5W at rest (0-1% load on the processor and also on igpu)

With PL2/PL1 above 100W, it's no surprise that both AMD and Intel, along with laptop manufacturers, screwed up so much in 2023...

Thanks for your reply, @NikoB.

3-4 times 2.4-3.5W gives a range of the 8-14W which is still way better than the 24 and 27W I'm getting in the Legion's Quiet and Balance modes respectively.

In fact, this notebookcheck review below measured the idle power measured on the 13900HX and 7945HX machines from Asus at 5.8W and 8.3W respectively:
AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX Analysis - Zen4 Dragon Range is faster and more efficient than Intel Raptor Lake-HX (sorry, as a new user, I can't seem to post links even to notebookcheck articles!)

Is this likely to be a Lenovo implementation issue?

Quote from: RNarayan73 on June 13, 2023, 23:40:51tried some tweaks within Advanced Power Plan settings, e.g. setting Minimum Performance Limit to 5%, but nothing seems to work.

Set 1%.

In general, this is a clear problem for all laptops with AMD 45 series - apparently they have something wrong with the microcode for managing the optimization of core consumption in idle.

Intel also has serious problems with high idle consumption in Legion since 2023.

For both platforms, the consumption increased 3-4 times compared to the old series, where they consumed 2.4-3.5W at rest (0-1% load on the processor and also on igpu)

With PL2/PL1 above 100W, it's no surprise that both AMD and Intel, along with laptop manufacturers, screwed up so much in 2023...

Quote from: Gastredner on June 03, 2023, 14:58:41

Quote from: Neenyah on May 25, 2023, 10:20:48Runs easily that badly optimized shi*fest of Cyberpunk at maxed details - not a gaming laptop for NikoB.

Quote from: NikoB on May 25, 2023, 10:04:00...this is not a "gaming" laptop. If there is no 4090 card.

😁

Quote from: NikoB on May 25, 2023, 10:04:00And from the point of view of a working laptop - the processor is too weak for 2023.

True, it was maybe good back in 1993 but not today 👍 The absolute minimum to do any work in 2023 is the Frontier/OLCF-5 with its 606208 cores, anything less is too weak.

Don't feed the troll ;)

Quote from: Gunter Spranz on May 25, 2023, 13:57:23The Legion Pro 5 can be had with a 7945HX in some markets (EU and Asia, not US).
I have one since yesterday and i am very happy with it. I use it for software development and occasionally gaming.

I get about 30000 CB23 with <40db fans and 33000 with 44db fans (90-95C CPU temps though, but care more about noise).
I had better results using Legion toolkit and a custom profile because in Lenovos Vantage the fan curves cannot be adjusted low enough. The built-in profiles in quiet and balanced modes have way too high (and loud) fan curves.

Fully agree on too much fan noise on the built-in profiles. Take a look at the witcher screenshots in the review. The gpu sits at 67°C in performance mode, which is 20°C under nvidia's thermal limit. I would prefer 80°C and quieter fans.

Gunter, could you tell us something about fan acoustics? I intend to use a laptop stand and my current computer suffers from some high-pitched fan whining sound when standing on it. When using it on the desk it's nearly inaudible, but I want to use the stand for better airflow and ergonomics. I don't wear headphones so fan noise is critical too me.

@Gunter and @Allen: Have you noticed any fan (coil) whine under load (e.g. gaming) when lifting up the laptop?

@Gastredner, I have the Legion 5 Pro with Ryzen 7945HX and have raised it for the same reasons as you suggest. As described at length in another post in this thread, the fan runs perpetually at 1700rpm when the laptop is idle (no background processes running either) with a whining noise. Under load, the sound of the airflow seems to overwhelm the whine which is still there.

Quote from: Gunter Spranz on May 25, 2023, 13:57:23The Legion Pro 5 can be had with a 7945HX in some markets (EU and Asia, not US).
I have one since yesterday and i am very happy with it. I use it for software development and occasionally gaming.

I get about 30000 CB23 with <40db fans and 33000 with 44db fans (90-95C CPU temps though, but care more about noise).
I had better results using Legion toolkit and a custom profile because in Lenovos Vantage the fan curves cannot be adjusted low enough. The built-in profiles in quiet and balanced modes have way too high (and loud) fan curves.

Hi @Gunter, I tried the same too, using a custom mode via LLT and could only lower the fan to a minimum of 1700rpm. Is it the same with you and is 1700 a hard floor imposed by the firmware?

Did you have any luck with reducing the CPU package power draw when the laptop is idle? I can't get anything lower than 24W and 27W of CPU package power with Lenovo's stock Quiet and Balance modes. This keeps the temperature around 60C and the fan is therefore running all the time when idle.

I have the same model with a Ryzen 9 7945HX CPU and 4070 GPU. Impressed with the power it offers for my need which is not for gaming but Machine Learning, but I'm struggling with the idle CPU power draw out of the box.

This article (although for the 7745HX) suggests a possible idle CPU power draw of 8W and this another one I came across on notebookcheck (although for the 7945HX CPU, but non-Legion laptop models) suggest possible idle draw of 8W too.

However, out of the box, in both Balance and Quiet power modes, I can at best get an idle CPU package power draw of 27W and 24W respectively when plugged in. This keeps the idle temperature at 60C and the fan on perpetually at the lowest speed of 1700rpm which produces an annoying whine. I've used stock Windows Power plans and tried some tweaks within Advanced Power Plan settings, e.g. setting Minimum Performance Limit to 5%, but nothing seems to work. Most of the Advanced Power Plan settings seem to be to manage the upper limits of performance, not so much to manage the lower limits.

What am I missing? How can I lower the idle CPU package power so that it can run cooler without the fan running when idle?

Quote from: Gastredner on June 04, 2023, 11:42:33...

Don't worry about NikoB, he's a jester here and his must-always-say-the-opposite behaviour is entertaining despite him calling everyone else retards/fools/idiots/poor/morons/younametheword; I mean the guy says something today, you literally copy/paste his own paragraph and a day later he replies to it and says the opposite by bombing you with "you clueless idiots" type of things 😅
 
But yeah, him aside, you said it all here very well, excellent and valid points, kudos 👏

Quote from: RobertJasiek on June 04, 2023, 12:16:07Compromise when buying a notebook may be needed but manufacturers get too much of the following wrong:
- keyboard far worse than desktop keyboard
- keyboard models unavailable months after launch
- noise
- display with PWM, large ratio or glare
- battery life
- maintenance

Yep, this is all true but I have one thing to add to you list - excellent build quality, great battery life, very good performance... paired with a sub-300 nits glossy (!) screen that renders device completely unusable outdoors. It's like OEMs are battling hard for the "Ultimate Troll Of The Year" award because I legit have no other explanation how can they be so out of touch with reality to do things like that.