Quote from: zopi on May 17, 2023, 22:14:31If they release a new Framework 13 with new parts that are no longer compatible with the old ones, that would be the end of them. They would lose the first generations of customers and it would destroy the idea of the Framework notebook.

But here comes the question, how long do people expect the design to last? At one point they are going to want to push the improvements they made for the 16 to the 13. Either that or they will have to create other versions like 12 inch, 14 inch so that new updates can be added while filling in the need. But what about 10 years later? 20 years later? That is the real question, how many years are they guaranteeing support of same chassis design

I think it is more important to first generation buyers of any new model be it 13 or 16 to be clear how long they guarantee re-usability as a laptop. (Cause they are also playing with stuff like making old laptops into mini desktops and etc)

Well, the 16 they said they made some room for adjustments in the future, but the 13 is most likely going to hit a dead end eventually when more people simply want the new stuff

Quote from: zopi on May 17, 2023, 22:02:00And there are options to easily change the keyboard layout. In Example as a german developer I like to have a us layout keyboard for development and a german layout for other things.

Is there any Notebook with upgrade options for the keyboard?

Generally, what people do is just buy stickers and this way you can have 2 keyboards. Some do make swapping keyboards possible in a minute or so. Though you probably have to restart.

Generally when people are asking for different keyboards, they don't just mean languages. They mean completely different layouts, like for example full sized arrow keys or etc.

Quote from: NikoB on May 17, 2023, 09:04:33Screen - today only LG "IPS Black" panel with a native contrast ratio of 2000:1 can be considered a decent screen. Everything else is no longer interesting. And of course 4k@120Hz minimum with a response time of no more than 7ms on G2G/B2W.

Decent screen is up for debate, personally I don't need such fast refresh rates or etc. As long as it is 100% sRGB and at least 400nits, I'd take the screen that consumes the least power

QuoteModularity is meaningless, without at least 2-3 ports at the same time on each slot, but then they must be wider in size.

Not really, from what I read they could fit 2 on each slot just fine. The issue is if you want full  features on each one. But there is enough space for 2 usb-c ports per slot

QuoteWell, let's not forget the key thing - with such a shameful speed of RAM (outdated DDR4), there can be no question of servicing 4 TB4 at the same time. Even the LPDDR5 7500 is unable to serve them simultaneously at 40Gb/s each, especially in parallel with the operation of the interposed video chip.

I think DDR4 makes sense on the Intel version, it makes it so you can reuse the ram if you have previous models. If you want most powerful, you'd opt for the AMD version anyways. And why in the world do you need to service 4 TB4s at same time on a 13 inch laptop?

QuoteToday, the x86 platform can be considered completely dead in terms of creating concepts for the future. It technically lagged behind Apple's solutions in terms of RAM speed by at least 5 times, and here it is 10 times.

The day Apple's like solution takes off is the day I stop buying laptops. Considering their laptop sales are falling speaks volume about their direction. End of the day most software is still written for x86 and them trying to run x86 apps on it results in many broken apps

RAM speed means little if little stuff make use of it to full potential, you get lots of diminishing returns. 2x ram speed gives you at best 10% improvement. The only time ram speed has some usefulness is if you are doing gpu work and your gpu doesn't have vram

QuoteThere is nothing to pay money for, except for very rare specific applications that are generally uninteresting to the mass consumer.

For the mass consumer, tablets with keyboards that cost half the price of laptops are more than plenty or the cheapest laptop you can find at best. I've been buying $300-400 laptops for others in the family and they work just as well as the most expensive Apple laptop for browsing the internet for a few minutes and opening up a document or spreadsheet.

Those buying laptops are all in the "very rare specific applications" category. We are all here precisely because we have specific needs

At least 2 errors concerning the End-User Customization Options.

QuoteEven so, the entire motherboard must be replaced if you intend the upgrade the processor and you can't simply swap out the Intel motherboard for an AMD one, either.

Once they are released you totally can just swap out the intel mainboard for an amd one so that's not really true.

And while it's not OLED they already released a matt version of the display and the new version should ship with that instead of the glossy one.
Considering the RGB keyboard I personally can't see a reason why it should be on the roadmap considering it was never marketed or planned as a gaming  but a thin and light business laptop

Quote from: A on May 16, 2023, 23:24:49The real question I wonder is now that they are going to produce a Framework 16 with so much customization, what will happen to the Framework 13. Will they continue to support that design for a few more years? Indefinitely? or will they release a new model with the improvements they learned from the 16.

If they release a new Framework 13 with new parts that are no longer compatible with the old ones, that would be the end of them. They would lose the first generations of customers and it would destroy the idea of the Framework notebook.

QuoteAs expected, the 2023 Framework 13.5 utilizes essentially the same chassis skeleton and materials as the previous 2022 and 2021 models

No, they changed the hinges and in the marketplace there are 3 options now.

Quoteno upgrade options for the display, keyboard, or webcam

Yet! The possibility to repair this parts is better than the other notebooks.

And there are options to easily change the keyboard layout. In Example as a german developer I like to have a us layout keyboard for development and a german layout for other things.

Is there any Notebook with upgrade options for the keyboard?

Quoteloud fan noise when under load

I bought my notebook because the test on this page said it would have a silent fan noise. It is louder than expected.

Quoteno AdobeRGB or P3 colors

Maybe there will be an option in the next years.

Quotechassis flexes too easily

Quoteweak speakers

They got an update with the Chromebook edition and the intel 13th. The new speakers are available in the marketplace.

Quote from: UKinformatic on May 17, 2023, 11:18:39Graphics Intel Iris Xe G7 96EU I DON'T LIKE AMD RDNA 3 is 10 times more powerful.

Faster in games (but definitely not 20x faster, lol) and benchmarks but, shocker, shocker, slower in work and professional software. And this is not a gaming laptop.

Quote from: NikoB on May 17, 2023, 09:04:33Today, the x86 platform can be considered completely dead in terms of creating concepts for the future. It technically lagged behind Apple's solutions in terms of RAM speed by at least 5 times, and here it is 10 times.

Lol. April 1st is long gone yet you keep repeating this same bad (and incorrect) joke over and over again in almost every single thread.

Apple, the kings of two specific benchmarks, who get completely destroyed in, check this now, actual work and productive usage, by quite literally every single comparable x86. True achievement, such wow.

Quote from: UKinformatic on May 17, 2023, 11:18:39Graphics Intel Iris Xe G7 96EU I DON'T LIKE AMD RDNA 3 is 10 times more powerful.

No, it's not. On average it's about 50% better, in some cases 100%. That makes it 2 times as fast at best (which is huge), but not 10 times.

QuoteDDR4-3200 not crazy.

In contrary, that's crazy (in a dumb way). I would have liked to see the best i7-1370P processor with DDR5-5600 RAM and then compare it to AMD APUs. Unfortunately Notebookcheck does not have such a test yet. Using 3200 RAM is a joke.

Graphics Intel Iris Xe G7 96EU I DON'T LIKE AMD RDNA 3 is 10 times more powerful.
Intel Core i7-1370P 14 x 1.4 - 5.2 GHz I prefer AMD Zen 4 7040 much more efficient.
DDR4-3200 not crazy. I prefer AMD DDR5 -6000

I consider it essential that with the current times I prefer AMD ZEN 7040 4 Phoenix= because it has AI Artificial intelligence with XDNA architecture developed by Xilinx and everything at 4nm vs 10nm from Intel so in Intel ultrabook it produces more heat and is less efficient something essential in a laptop

I don't like this idiotic modular design with a lot of wasted space at all.

Much better if there are 2 USB-A 3.2 Gen2 on the right and left and 2 USB40 / TB4 + RJ45 ports for 5Gb / s on the back.

An HDMI output is required.

Plus at least 2 audio jacks for 4 pins - left and right.

Screen - today only LG "IPS Black" panel with a native contrast ratio of 2000:1 can be considered a decent screen. Everything else is no longer interesting. And of course 4k@120Hz minimum with a response time of no more than 7ms on G2G/B2W.

The minimum amount of memory today is 32GB. Better already 64 (or 48 dies 24 + 24, if there is support in the BIOS), taking into account the requirements of modern integrated video.

Again, technically the memory modules should be the fastest on the market. the performance of the integrated video directly depends on this.

Modularity is meaningless, without at least 2-3 ports at the same time on each slot, but then they must be wider in size.

Well, let's not forget the key thing - with such a shameful speed of RAM (outdated DDR4), there can be no question of servicing 4 TB4 at the same time. Even the LPDDR5 7500 is unable to serve them simultaneously at 40Gb/s each, especially in parallel with the operation of the interposed video chip.

Today, the x86 platform can be considered completely dead in terms of creating concepts for the future. It technically lagged behind Apple's solutions in terms of RAM speed by at least 5 times, and here it is 10 times.

There is nothing to pay money for, except for very rare specific applications that are generally uninteresting to the mass consumer.

Well it has almost 100% sRGB so it is okay for office , video viewing entertainment.
Kudos for the low latency, maybe other big manufacturers should ask Framework for help since they seem unable to do that...

Love the idea of this laptop but display holds me back. Offer a better one and im sold.

Framework 13 was their first attempt so I guess it was expected of some of the weaknesses. Framework 16 is going to have more customization. But yes they really need to up their game of customization options, leaving it to community is nice and all but that's not always feasible, they need more of a middle ground where they help out. Like for example, let the community do the design, then if it gets enough people putting down money help them find someone to produce it.

That said, I wouldn't worry about chasing every single little display improvement as most people would be more than happy with 100% sRGB.

The real question I wonder is now that they are going to produce a Framework 16 with so much customization, what will happen to the Framework 13. Will they continue to support that design for a few more years? Indefinitely? or will they release a new model with the improvements they learned from the 16.

" but the overall design could use some more customization."

That's the point of this laptop. Keeping the same design so that you can upgrade the motherboard easily down the road.

Also, lets conveniently ignore that those XPS & HP that are being mentioned every single paragraph as "better" in certain aspects are also more expensive, more locked down & less repair friendly.

Terrible review.

Hello Ngo and Notebook Check staff, I have a complaint about this and other recent reviews, hear me out. The photos are blurry, the internals of the laptop are not visible at all. Can you, please, set your cameras to an appropriate mode to take good, sharp pictures? These internals photos are supposed to be technical pictures, not artistic.