It's great to have progress, but the first thing I thought when reading this was that while this ultra-fast charger can get the battery to 80% in "just" 12 minutes, a gas-powered car can get to *100%* in *just* ~2 minutes. And personally, and I know others that are the same way, when doing a long drive that requires stopping to refuel, especially when it's so long it requires two or even three stops, I stop just long enough to fill up and get back on the road. If I'm going to be driving 16-20 hours, I don't want to make it 17-21 due to having to wait even "just" 12 minutes to fill up. I realize most people rarely, if ever, do drives that long, and many of those that do would prefer longer breaks, but for those like me, it needs to be 400-500 miles (650-800km) from a ~5 minute refuel before it's going to be "disruptive."

Quote from: ricegf on June 19, 2022, 06:13:56Except that gasoline vehicles burn 10x more frequently per capita than electric vehicles.

Source? This sounds unlikely, and I'd like to see hard numbers. Regardless, the amount of water it takes to extinguish an EV fire, not to mention the potential for environmental contamination from battery leakage, I'm inclined to believe EV fires are, as a whole, more harmful than ICE ones are. Not to mention that EVs are trash once the batteries go bad, and while the newer technology may last significantly longer, the earlier ones are already failing, leading to cars being replaced far earlier than they should need to be, which is extremely wasteful.

Quote from: L on June 16, 2022, 17:57:20All is fine until there is a battery fire. EVs can be a stopgap until the next power source like hydrogen.

Except that gasoline vehicles burn 10x more frequently per capita than electric vehicles.

I'm sorry, but hydrogen already lost the personal vehicle market. It's dead, Jim.  Take it from an early but reformed hydrogen vehicle proponent.

Hydrogen is still very expensive even when created from dirty fossil fuels much less clean electrolysis, because of basic physics. I don't see any reason that will change.

Also, building out the necessary fueling infrastructure would be even more prohibitively costly, because unlike EVs you can't refuel HFCV's cheaply overnight at your house. You have to replicate the existing gasoline infrastructure in its entirety but with even more expensive stations. That seems highly unlikely.

But the real nail in hydrogen's personal vehicle coffin: Unlike EVs, HFCVs offer no advantage of any significance over gasoline. Why would a normal driver want to switch and pay more for scarcer but almost as dirty fuel?

Don't believe me? Only a few thousand HFCVs are on US roads today despite the flashy launch in 2014 and Toyota's grim determination to give away free very expensive fuel as a convincer. Yet EVs were launched in 2011 - only 3 years earlier - and now number over 2.5 million, with popular models sold out months in advance and thrilled customers posting glowing YouTube videos and reviews.

Hydrogen vehicles are just not happening, because there's not a good business case for them. I'm sorry. Perhaps other market segments will prove more welcoming to the technology.

12min to 80% is really fast but not exactly disruption compared to a Ioniq 5 doing it in 18 minutes. it's God for people who like to drive and not make stop a lot though. I think data shows that people stop more than  that in average

This must be USA-based content 😂

Finland here: went on a leisure trip to another city nearby (200km) in Peugeot e-2008 having a 45kWh battery.
1. Ultra fast chargers are useless for cheaper e-car: Ionity cost more than gas while charging at 88kW 0-50%, 50kW at 50-80%. I guess the majority of electric cars are cheaper low-capacity options because it makes no difference driving around the city.
2. 50kW charger at a nice restaurant / shopping mall are great. 15 min charge gives a 1-1.5h drive, which is how often you'd want to stop and go out of a car on a leisure trip.
3. AC "up to 22kW" chargers (7-11kW depending on build-in charging station in a car) are useless for journeys, like the may not be there at all. Sadly those are the most common ones.
4. Main limiting factor is 50+kW charger count and locations, because they dictate the stopping points. There is not enough of them at the moment!

50kW DC chargers are great because of low rate (little more than at-home charger, and 4 times less than Ionity or other 350kW ultra-chargers). Was glad to see new cheap DC chargers bumped to 150kW (two-car station with 150kW total, 75+75kW with both cars actively charging).

Actual prices per kWh, as from receipts: 0.15€/kWh at home, 0.20€/kWh at AC 11kW charger, 0.25€/kWh at 50kW charger, 0.30€/kWh at 150kW charger (probably higher fixed price per minute than at 50kW one), 1.05€/kWh at Ionity (ripoff, costlier than gas even at current crazy gas prices).

Quote from: Martin Winlow on June 17, 2022, 11:32:07Existing ~400V drive-trains can fully recharge (ie 0-100% in around an hour using existing ~200Kw infrastructure and for most people on a long trip driving a larger-batteried EV, taking an hours break in the middle of a 6 to 8 hour drive really isn't an issue.

Are you really suggesting that one should sit in a car for an hour? It's not like chargers are in interesting places with things to do. And if there is a restaurant, it's typically not particularly good. I would rather take three 20 minute breaks than whole hour in one piece (and in reality, they can be shorter as a car charges faster in the beginning). Also, do realize that the faster cars charge, the more cars can the charger service per day and the less likely are people to disappear somewhere leaving it needlessly occupied. It's also going to help with towing, bike racks, etc. when energy consumption is a lot higher. Once you can charge in 5 minutes, you might charge first and then drive to a nice restaurant further away from the highway (or vice versa). Of course, a nice restaurant with a slower DC charger might be just about perfect. I guess charging at around 200-250 kW might work out pretty well for fast food chains. Just not my cup of tea.

Hydrogen is of course dead as a personal vehicle fuel. It's horribly inefficient and expensive if clean and no better fit the environment than gasoline if made from natural gas (as most is today). And you're still stuck with a weekly stop at a "gas" station (few of which are even planned) for fuel.

But the Taycan demo highlighted that standard chargers are more than adequate for coast to coast electric travel with no compromise at all today . We've traveled 2,800 miles in our 2020 Tesla Model 3 LR to visit our new great-grandson with no issues at all and only 6% extra time for charging, even using the older and slower V2 Superchargers for much of the trip. Great traveling car. With all V3 Superchargers or high-power CCS standard chargers, such a trip would take no longer than in a gasoline vehicle for us.

That XPeng appears to require custom chargers is a Very Bad Plan, I think.

Simply read: planetforlife dot com (the section titled 'The false promise of the hydrogen economy' - sorry I can't post a direct link here)

Personally (and as an EV driver of over 10 years) I think the need for this sort of high-speed charging is mostly unnecessary - for 95%+ of motorists.  Existing ~400V drive-trains can fully recharge (ie 0-100% in around an hour using existing ~200Kw infrastructure and for most people on a long trip driving a larger-batteried EV, taking an hours break in the middle of a 6 to 8 hour drive really isn't an issue.  It also breaks the drive up and makes it much more relaxed and less tiring (and therefore safer).

Quote from: cmvrgr on June 16, 2022, 18:17:44The life expectancy of the batteries with that superfast charging will be cut in half.

Most people most days drive less than the range of a typical EV. So, the practical impact would be limited. Sure, you want to charge slowly at home as much as possible.

But there are cells that could take it. In actual production and use. The Japanese have been using them in some EVs at least for the domestic market (I think Honda Fit is an example). They're relatively expensive and heavy, but boy, are they tough little suckers. For example, lithium doesn't deposit in them. So, there is no risk of a deposit causing an internal short which would cause fire. They can charge and discharge at huge rates. The most powerful version in that particular line-up can discharge at 40 C for thousands and thousands of cycles and can easily handle 10 C charging IIRC (meaning a 100 kWh battery would be able to provide 4 MW and charge at 1 MW, that is 125 A @ 800 V). They should last decades with gentler use (we don't know for sure because they haven't been around that long but testing suggests 30 years shouldn't be a problem as long as they don't get mechanically destroyed - crushed, vibrated into pieces, etc.). They're so tough they can handle trickle-charging and floating - the only Li-ion chemistry I know of that can handle it without being ruined or destroyed. I believe prices have come down. There are more manufacturers. Don't know if all of them have as good results as Toshiba did with theirs. I have been admiring them for a decade. It's great that there is a chemistry that happens to be one of the safest if not the safest Li-ion chemistry and at the same time one of the most potent if not the most potent Li-ion chemistry that we know of.

Not so distant future he says. Sure, but first we have to get those chargers everywhere and get rid of all current existing EVs since they dont support 800v charging... Id say not on his lifetime.

Hydrogen is a stupidity with the current energy sources.

To produce hydrogen you need....electrictiy, a LOT of it.
And the yield of hydrogen compared to the electricity needed is abysmal.

Hydrogen is only viable with nuclear fusion.

The life expectancy of the batteries with that superfast charging will be cut in half. They should invest in hydrogen that can be used everywhere both in electric cars and internal combustion engines.

All is fine until there is a battery fire. EVs can be a stopgap until the next power source like hydrogen.