Definitely agree .. I have the X1 Carbon 6th gen and I loved the higher travel of those keys with the deeper indent and thicker keys. This 9th gen that I now own feels like a MacBook.

This is only my 2nd day using it but I did work on it yesterday for roughly 10 hours with lots of typing. I'll see if it grows on me.

I own a thinkpad X1 yoga Gen 4 and 5, mainly because of the typing experience. Keyboard typing experience is crucial when choosing a laptop. Please Lenovo don't ruin it!

Quote from: _MT_ on May 14, 2021, 09:54:56
I wouldn't call it simple. Fn key isn't a normal modifier. You can't normally detect it. When you hit Fn + delete on a Surface Laptop, you simply see insert (assuming Fn lock off). Or am I missing something?

I just think it's better than having to deal with different placements on different laptops, some more stupid than others. It seems like a good compromise. If you don't have a good place for them, do it this way. I think it's intuitive, easy to get used to and not really much worse, if at all (as I wrote, we already use control and shift with them). Consider latest Dells that have home/ end on F11/ F12 IIRC. I don't use F11 or F12 that much but it means I have to choose between having F-keys and home/end without Fn. I can't have both (Surface has the same problem, only it's F9 and F10 IIRC). Just idiotic. And they started using that layout on Latitudes and Precisions as well. Whatever happened to full-size keyboards that could fit escape, 12 F-keys and three other keys in a row? 16 in total, with grouping to boot. On a six row keyboard, the three keys would be home, end and delete for me. As I wrote, I don't use page up/ down much at all, but I know others would be unhappy. Of course, it doesn't help when you fit a power button in there. Truly idiotic. I hope they have somehow accounted for hitting it by accident.

I know, tell me about it. It seems like most customers aren't that particular about such things. It's like people buy laptops but don't use keyboards. I don't get it. Why not get a tablet? Or perhaps they can't use a keyboard properly (typing with all fingers, without looking, etc.) so they don't perceive the damage done.

True, I forgot about that, but you could use Ctrl and/or Alt and/or Shift. I get it, not the same, but at least it's an option. It would certainly make more sense for the manufacturers to just include the function and then people can use it or not. And this is an example of why they should make the Fn key nontransparent to the OS.

That's one of the things I love about the ThinkPad keyboards, is that they have not even 16, but 17 keys, with grouping even. Heck, they even managed to do that and make the escape and delete keys oversized. So I don't get why others can't seem to do the same. Same with why they can't seem to be capable of making the arrow keys full-sized.

I find that most people just aren't very demanding or picky about most things they buy, which is unfortunate and why manufacturers know they can get away with releasing half-***ed products. And most people don't use computers very heavily, mostly just doing web browsing with some typing for email and documents, but nothing too heavy. And so they don't really care. They care more about other features. And unfortunately with laptops, the options are much more limited than with desktops and there's a lot more compromise, so most people choose those other features over a quality keyboard, and so the crappy keyboards win out overall.

Quote from: vertigo on May 13, 2021, 18:18:01
I'm sure you've considered it, and maybe have already done it, but you should be able to get what you want through simple remapping. I've considered mapping home and end to the arrows myself, just because if I'm already there it could be a little easier than going to the top row, but I really can't see it making much difference for me. I just hate when that's all you get, home and end on the arrow keys (and typically page up/down as well), so you have no choice but to use the Fn key to use them. I have to have at least home and end as independent keys, and that's the sole reason I decided against getting the Zephyrus G14, which I was about to buy several months ago before realizing they left them out.

... I sometimes wonder how people manage to stay employed with the decisions they make.

I wouldn't call it simple. Fn key isn't a normal modifier. You can't normally detect it. When you hit Fn + delete on a Surface Laptop, you simply see insert (assuming Fn lock off). Or am I missing something?

I just think it's better than having to deal with different placements on different laptops, some more stupid than others. It seems like a good compromise. If you don't have a good place for them, do it this way. I think it's intuitive, easy to get used to and not really much worse, if at all (as I wrote, we already use control and shift with them). Consider latest Dells that have home/ end on F11/ F12 IIRC. I don't use F11 or F12 that much but it means I have to choose between having F-keys and home/end without Fn. I can't have both (Surface has the same problem, only it's F9 and F10 IIRC). Just idiotic. And they started using that layout on Latitudes and Precisions as well. Whatever happened to full-size keyboards that could fit escape, 12 F-keys and three other keys in a row? 16 in total, with grouping to boot. On a six row keyboard, the three keys would be home, end and delete for me. As I wrote, I don't use page up/ down much at all, but I know others would be unhappy. Of course, it doesn't help when you fit a power button in there. Truly idiotic. I hope they have somehow accounted for hitting it by accident.

I know, tell me about it. It seems like most customers aren't that particular about such things. It's like people buy laptops but don't use keyboards. I don't get it. Why not get a tablet? Or perhaps they can't use a keyboard properly (typing with all fingers, without looking, etc.) so they don't perceive the damage done.

Quote from: _MT_ on May 13, 2021, 10:15:46
That is understandable. The root of the problem is that the key is called Page Down instead of Next Page. The logic f.lux uses makes perfect sense when the keys are above each other. But not when they're are next to each other. They should offer an option of inverting it. I would suggest it to them. Since it's a common arrangement on laptops.

I'm specifically talking about function plus arrows. Nothing else. On a desktop keyboard, moving (from typing position) to cursor keys and moving to the block above them with home and end is very similar. But on laptops, with six row keyboards and since home and end are often in different places on different keyboards, I would really rather have them on left and right cursor keys with function. On old seven row laptop keyboards, I felt it was a little bit more awkward compared to a desktop, but the block was still there and the keys were easy enough to find without looking. That's just not the case with a typical modern laptop keyboard. I'm so used to switching to cursor keys from typing and using them with shift (character selection), control (word skip) and control + shift (word selection) that it just feels very natural to use them with function as well (function for jumping and function + shift for selection). I have no problem hitting those combinations with my left hand.

Good points about the naming of the keys (prev/next page would make things much more logical) and seeing if they would enable swapping of the keys. I'm actually going to be making a couple other requests, so I'll have to add that, though I don't have much hope for any of them since, from what I can tell looking through the forum, most requests either aren't done or go entirely unanswered.

I'm sure you've considered it, and maybe have already done it, but you should be able to get what you want through simple remapping. I've considered mapping home and end to the arrows myself, just because if I'm already there it could be a little easier than going to the top row, but I really can't see it making much difference for me. I just hate when that's all you get, home and end on the arrow keys (and typically page up/down as well), so you have no choice but to use the Fn key to use them. I have to have at least home and end as independent keys, and that's the sole reason I decided against getting the Zephyrus G14, which I was about to buy several months ago before realizing they left them out.

And yeah, the Surface keyboard is just terrible for so many reasons. Worst keyboard I've ever used by a long-shot. And the power button placement on some laptops (where delete should be; seriously, what kind of idiot...??) was the main deciding factor in not purchasing any of those. I sometimes wonder how people manage to stay employed with the decisions they make.

Quote from: vertigo on May 12, 2021, 16:12:25
The home and end keys, though, I use a lot, and they required the use of the Fn key on my Surface, and I hated, hated, hated it. I never, ever want them to not be standalone keys again.

One thing I hate about the Surface Laptop keyboard is that F keys are via function but when you engage Fn-lock, you get insert instead of delete. I use F keys a lot. Just a few of them but a lot. Or the power button. It's nice that they placed delete as the right-most button. But some laptops have it the other way around. Home is just too far away to find without looking and the top row isn't grouped. Grouping of F keys allows you to find them by touch. That way, I can reliably hit F4 or F5 without looking. Really, useless crap. I want to strangle someone when I see it.

Quote from: vertigo on May 12, 2021, 16:12:25
Part of it is that I, like you, don't use them very often, and one of the main things I do use them for is dimming the monitor with f.lux, where page down dims and page up brightens, which is confusing because I'm pressing the right key to make the brightness bar go left and the left key to make it go right.

The home and end keys, though, I use a lot, and they required the use of the Fn key on my Surface, and I hated, hated, hated it. I never, ever want them to not be standalone keys again.

That is understandable. The root of the problem is that the key is called Page Down instead of Next Page. The logic f.lux uses makes perfect sense when the keys are above each other. But not when they're are next to each other. They should offer an option of inverting it. I would suggest it to them. Since it's a common arrangement on laptops.

I'm specifically talking about function plus arrows. Nothing else. On a desktop keyboard, moving (from typing position) to cursor keys and moving to the block above them with home and end is very similar. But on laptops, with six row keyboards and since home and end are often in different places on different keyboards, I would really rather have them on left and right cursor keys with function. On old seven row laptop keyboards, I felt it was a little bit more awkward compared to a desktop, but the block was still there and the keys were easy enough to find without looking. That's just not the case with a typical modern laptop keyboard. I'm so used to switching to cursor keys from typing and using them with shift (character selection), control (word skip) and control + shift (word selection) that it just feels very natural to use them with function as well (function for jumping and function + shift for selection). I have no problem hitting those combinations with my left hand.

Quote from: _MT_ on May 12, 2021, 12:14:02
I don't agree with you. If you are in a page mode and you hit right arrow, you expect to see the next page. Therefore, if you want to put page up and down keys next to each other, rather than above each other, page down should be the right key. To mirror right arrow. This is what makes for an intuitive interface. Just as "next song" button is on the right on players. Or "fast forward." It's always the right button. Left is previous/ back. Right means forward and since we read top down and pages (in a computer) are typically organized top down, forward means down therefore right means down. Yes, I can see how down could be seen as previous (you move towards the top, top is forward) but that's not how text works.

I think the only reason they keep the function key is legacy. That's why only ThinkPads have it that way. Yes, I don't like it either, it was really the primary reason my first laptop was a Latitude and not a ThinkPad. And the BIOS option is a poor substitute as, as you write, the key is smaller. I think IBM screwed up.

I quite like having function key with arrows for this. Up and down for page up and down and left and right for home and end. Yes, you have to press one more key to get the job done. But it can work with shift pretty well for home/ end. It's intuitive. And when it comes to going through pages in a document, I typically have the whole page displayed and use arrows anyway. I don't use page up and down much at all. Or I like using a scroll wheel. I still think fondly of a keyboard I had as a kid that had a scroll wheel on the left edge. For some reason, scrolling through a document with that was more comfortable than scrolling with a wheel on a mouse. I could tuck my fingers sort of underneath it, my thumb would rest perfectly on top. The best scrolling experience I ever had.

Good point about page up and down. It's just that I seem to intuitively expect it to be the other way, and every single time I use them I have to look. Part of it is that I, like you, don't use them very often, and one of the main things I do use them for is dimming the monitor with f.lux, where page down dims and page up brightens, which is confusing because I'm pressing the right key to make the brightness bar go left and the left key to make it go right. And yes, I realize I can adjust the brightness via hardware with the actual brightness keys, but the lowest level is often too dim whereas the next level is too bright. Lenovo really did a crap job there, with far too big a jump at the low end.

The home and end keys, though, I use a lot, and they required the use of the Fn key on my Surface, and I hated, hated, hated it. I never, ever want them to not be standalone keys again.

Quote from: vertigo on May 12, 2021, 07:23:58
Personally, I like the placement of the home and end keys and don't ever use the context key, and the page up and down keys are in as good a place as any (IMO), though I do think they're backwards of how they should be (left key should be down and right key should be up). And the Ctrl and Fn keys can be swapped in BIOS, though I agree it's a stupid placement to begin with and it should be the other way around and allow those that actually prefer it this way to switch it. The problem with swapping them is the labels don't match and, more importantly, the Fn key is smaller, making the "Ctrl" key, once swapped, smaller.

I don't agree with you. If you are in a page mode and you hit right arrow, you expect to see the next page. Therefore, if you want to put page up and down keys next to each other, rather than above each other, page down should be the right key. To mirror right arrow. This is what makes for an intuitive interface. Just as "next song" button is on the right on players. Or "fast forward." It's always the right button. Left is previous/ back. Right means forward and since we read top down and pages (in a computer) are typically organized top down, forward means down therefore right means down. Yes, I can see how down could be seen as previous (you move towards the top, top is forward) but that's not how text works.

I think the only reason they keep the function key is legacy. That's why only ThinkPads have it that way. Yes, I don't like it either, it was really the primary reason my first laptop was a Latitude and not a ThinkPad. And the BIOS option is a poor substitute as, as you write, the key is smaller. I think IBM screwed up.

I quite like having function key with arrows for this. Up and down for page up and down and left and right for home and end. Yes, you have to press one more key to get the job done. But it can work with shift pretty well for home/ end. It's intuitive. And when it comes to going through pages in a document, I typically have the whole page displayed and use arrows anyway. I don't use page up and down much at all. Or I like using a scroll wheel. I still think fondly of a keyboard I had as a kid that had a scroll wheel on the left edge. For some reason, scrolling through a document with that was more comfortable than scrolling with a wheel on a mouse. I could tuck my fingers sort of underneath it, my thumb would rest perfectly on top. The best scrolling experience I ever had.

Quote from: DonglyDiddles on May 12, 2021, 05:40:21
The layout is poop anyway if you ask me.
There is a reason that no other keyboard maker puts the Fn key on the far left of the bottom row... it screws with our notion, that we unshakably remember from usage of all standard desktop keyboards, that ctrl should be in that position directly under and left of shift...
and a dedicated Printscreen key on the bottom row... why? Another needless deviation from standard, but worse than that it replaces the ContextMenu key which is no where to be found on the keyboard, a key that's extra valuable for laptop.
It doesn't stop there, page up and down are by the arrow keys, OK this works. But Home and End are at the opposite side of the keyboard on the top row, what the ****?
Trash for programmers. Trash for productive typists.
It's like they're designing this windows-shipped laptop with mac-users in mind, what the hell??

Forget keyboard feel, garbage design is why I'm not considering buying these laptops. Seems like a mistake made in the 90s and refused to update.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong and their design is amazing... maybe throwing standards out the window for an erratic layout is great. But if that's true then why is this layout only found on ThinkPad series keyboards not their other lines?

Personally, I like the placement of the home and end keys and don't ever use the context key, and the page up and down keys are in as good a place as any (IMO), though I do think they're backwards of how they should be (left key should be down and right key should be up). And the Ctrl and Fn keys can be swapped in BIOS, though I agree it's a stupid placement to begin with and it should be the other way around and allow those that actually prefer it this way to switch it. The problem with swapping them is the labels don't match and, more importantly, the Fn key is smaller, making the "Ctrl" key, once swapped, smaller. If I could swap those and the page up/down keys, layout-wise it would be near-perfect for me. But yeah, putting print screen where insert is with insert as the alternate function for it so the context key could be there would certainly make more sense. They should just make a touch paper display strip on the right side with 5-6 slots that can be used for whatever you want, so people can put less frequently used keys like print screen, insert, pause/break, etc there.

The layout is poop anyway if you ask me.
There is a reason that no other keyboard maker puts the Fn key on the far left of the bottom row... it screws with our notion, that we unshakably remember from usage of all standard desktop keyboards, that ctrl should be in that position directly under and left of shift...
and a dedicated Printscreen key on the bottom row... why? Another needless deviation from standard, but worse than that it replaces the ContextMenu key which is no where to be found on the keyboard, a key that's extra valuable for laptop.
It doesn't stop there, page up and down are by the arrow keys, OK this works. But Home and End are at the opposite side of the keyboard on the top row, what the ****?
Trash for programmers. Trash for productive typists.
It's like they're designing this windows-shipped laptop with mac-users in mind, what the hell??

Forget keyboard feel, garbage design is why I'm not considering buying these laptops. Seems like a mistake made in the 90s and refused to update.
Hey, maybe I'm wrong and their design is amazing... maybe throwing standards out the window for an erratic layout is great. But if that's true then why is this layout only found on ThinkPad series keyboards not their other lines?

This is just showing what I've been saying for a while, which is that ThinkPad quality has been on a general downward trend for years. For many people that buy ThinkPads, the keyboard and/or TrackPoint are main driving factors toward that choice, and for some, like myself, the only reason for buying a Lenovo instead of the many other available options, a large number of which are superior in many, if not most, ways to Lenovo. And they're taking the biggest thing that makes them stand out and gives consumers reason to choose their product over something else and gradually destroying it. I was already set against getting another Lenovo after the problems I'm having with my new/current one, though the thought of using a laptop with cramped arrow keys and without a TrackPoint, as well as the multitude of other stupid design decisions I see in various keyboards, is an unpleasant one. But at this rate, that won't even matter, because in a year or two, when I might be looking to upgrade, ThinkPads won't even have that going for them anymore.

The article finally explains a bit why that, for the typing feel, the keyboard on the T430s I have has been the best typing experience for me. 2.5mm key travel! I never bothered to understand it myself, but did notice that it was visibly higher than other chiclet keyboards. Also, that, with my x220 being my other reference, earlier Thinkpads had higher quality TrackPoints. The low-profile TrackPoints for the more recent models I have are just not that great.

Quote from: winston on May 11, 2021, 12:01:07

Quote from: Dorby on May 11, 2021, 11:33:49

Gaming laptop OEMs are always coming up with different variations of "mechanical keyboard" switches. Gigabyte has one with Aorus, Dell with Alienware, Asus with Scar, MSI with GT series and Acer probably has one too, can't remember which.

Unfortunately they all look like learning aids for retarded children, not something you'd wanna use in a professional environment.

Way to signal your superior intellect 🙄

Don't forget the touchpad which is also now ruined by Lenovo by turning it into a clickpad. They should have at least one series or at least one ThinkPad model from their dozens with touchpad buttons below and trackpoint buttons above. I permanently moved from ThinkPads to gaming laptops with touchpad buttons because of this.