sneaky intel

youtube.com/watch?v=Gj5_uc4ScNE
youtube.com/watch?v=eINDw7zH5dk

Quote from: Vaidyanathan on June 05, 2020, 18:13:36
There in lies the catch. It is very difficult to get that level of optimization. This is my personal take. PCs and smartphones cannot really be compared. It's RISC vs CISC. You really think Android needs an SD 865 to run Facebook or Twitter? But we find those apps lagging at times or behaving inconsistently even on a flagship phone with 8 GB RAM. Poor optimization is the culprit here.

Coming to the PC side of things, the problem gets even more compounded. A vast majority of PC apps built on Win32 still do not require GPU acceleration and rely heavily on the CPU. UWP apps are required to run at 60 fps and hence are generally more responsive although their functionality is a different matter altogether. Ultimately, after a certain threshold, the CPU starts becoming a bottleneck for your daily workflow unless all your work happens in a browser.

The thing is you don't need to optimize highly. The relationship between work (for the developer) and performance isn't linear. Initially, you can get good gains with little difference in the amount of work required (you just need to know what you're doing). But then you hit a wall and it's going to get difficult. Not just initially, it's going to be difficult to maintain it, to make changes, etc. Generally, you don't want very high optimization. It's just not worth it. You only do it in special cases where it makes enough difference. But you want to be in the sweet spot where you get a lot of music for your money (as exemplified by the 80-20 rule). This isn't really a question of CISC vs. RISC.

The problem is that a lot of so called developers are in fact incompetent. We often use technologies that compromise performance only to fight lack of discipline and knowledge. And compounding the problem is the fact that performance is abundant. You have to care and many don't. If you don't, so what if it gets a big laggy at times or if it drains your battery like there is no tomorrow. You'll buy a more powerful device next time and get a power bank. Like with everything, quality doesn't come cheap. Although it can be cheaper in the long run (unfortunately, some people are short-sighted).

Many workloads are not suited for GPUs. You wouldn't gain anything. That shouldn't be a problem. It's what the CPU is designed to do. As long as you do a good job.

broadwell->Sky Lake->Kaby Lake->whiskey Lake->Coffe Lake->Comet lake-> Rocket Lake. Still same 14nm. Generation by generation they just add 100 MHz and another 100 Mhz Turbo, 50MHZ  iGPU and renew conectivity. Instructions per cycle remain same! Ofc price was refreshed to meet new highs.
with their 10nm Ice Lake they improve acording to Intel:
18% increase in IPC in comparison to 2015 Skylake running at the same frequency and memory configuration
L1 instruction/data cache: 32KB/48 KiB; L2 cache: 512 KiB (+0/+12, L2 +256)
Dynamic Tuning 2.0 which allows the CPU to stay at turbo frequencies for longer. (in reality zero efect)
Add some instrutions for AVX and some AI improvements(for more vulnerabilities:)   )

Tiger Lake is same cpu, only integrated graphic card will be upgraded(noone care) and conectors(usb4, thunderbolt4), Nvidia2080Ti is using only 1/2 PCIe 3.0 x16 (very far from bottleneck), so  4.0 dont improve performance.

Summary: AMD beat Intel, and Intel offer nothing to fight back. Expect a lot of PR and bribing OEMs.

Quote from: Tov on June 05, 2020, 18:47:22

Quote from: kek on June 05, 2020, 17:30:22
As much of an excuse this might sound, he is right, tho.

Just look at ARM cpus in cellphones. You dont need to have the greatest and latest Snapdragon Chip to have a smooth device. Actually, the best experience comes out of the most optimized software.

Knowing Intel, they will probably shrink their die size again, and improve energy efficiency, andif they manage to pull it off, they can then show off how their CPU does the same work with half the energy used or something like that.

Remember, in laptops, it is not who is more powerful, but rather who last longer while keeping a good perfomance/energy usage ratio.

You know that AMD has a good performance/energy usage ratio better than Intel on both laptop and desktop right?

at
Actually, they don't. At least not on laptops. Just look which were the laptops with the longest battery life last year. Most of them are Intel.
Perhaps Renoir will get in that list this year, but as of now, AMD hasn't been that power efficient on laptops. And still, even if Renoir is good, the OEMs can always mess up something.

Quote from: Spunjji on June 05, 2020, 17:03:16
AMD designs can do Thunderbolt too, if it's wanted (it's mostly not).
AVX512 is near-useless on desktop, what good is it in a laptop?
AMD designs can do WiFi 6 too.
8k60 encoding from what input?
Who cares about Optane?
What's PCIe4 supposed to do in a laptop besides drain more power?

Standard fanboy crap - pop out a list of meaningless ancillary features and pretend it's definitive. "Oh, but my SEGA MegaDrive has BLAST PROCESSING"

That nickname (JayN) is all over the internet posting the same thing again and again and again. From tech sites, to financial sites, to anything sites. It could be a bot or a group of employees, an Intel shareholder, or something, but probably something more than just a fan.

Tiger Lake, Ampere, PCI-e 4 and Wifi 6e in the H series will be a very nice combination.  Merry Christmas to me probably.

Quote from: kek on June 05, 2020, 17:30:22
As much of an excuse this might sound, he is right, tho.

Just look at ARM cpus in cellphones. You dont need to have the greatest and latest Snapdragon Chip to have a smooth device. Actually, the best experience comes out of the most optimized software.

Knowing Intel, they will probably shrink their die size again, and improve energy efficiency, andif they manage to pull it off, they can then show off how their CPU does the same work with half the energy used or something like that.

Remember, in laptops, it is not who is more powerful, but rather who last longer while keeping a good perfomance/energy usage ratio.

You know that AMD has a good performance/energy usage ratio better than Intel on both laptop and desktop right?

Quote from: kek on June 05, 2020, 17:30:22Actually, the best experience comes out of the most optimized software.

There in lies the catch. It is very difficult to get that level of optimization. This is my personal take. PCs and smartphones cannot really be compared. It's RISC vs CISC. You really think Android needs an SD 865 to run Facebook or Twitter? But we find those apps lagging at times or behaving inconsistently even on a flagship phone with 8 GB RAM. Poor optimization is the culprit here.

Coming to the PC side of things, the problem gets even more compounded. A vast majority of PC apps built on Win32 still do not require GPU acceleration and rely heavily on the CPU. UWP apps are required to run at 60 fps and hence are generally more responsive although their functionality is a different matter altogether. Ultimately, after a certain threshold, the CPU starts becoming a bottleneck for your daily workflow unless all your work happens in a browser.

On the article generally, I can't miss remarking on the obvious hilarity of an Intel bod saying "don't look at the benchmarks" after they've spent decades manipulating benchmarks... right up to the recent ones they used for Ice Lake that showcased a single test in a niche application whose developer they paid to tap into a feature only their GPUs have, just so they could advertise a non-existent advantage over their own previous-gen products.

Pretty clear they're intending to keep their lead by making sure the best products are only allowed to have Intel in them.

Benchmark isn't everything, but your own features have security flaws, Intel!

Quote from: kek on June 05, 2020, 17:30:22
As much of an excuse this might sound, he is right, tho.

Just look at ARM cpus in cellphones. You dont need to have the greatest and latest Snapdragon Chip to have a smooth device. Actually, the best experience comes out of the most optimized software.

Knowing Intel, they will probably shrink their die size again, and improve energy efficiency, andif they manage to pull it off, they can then show off how their CPU does the same work with half the energy used or something like that.

Remember, in laptops, it is not who is more powerful, but rather who last longer while keeping a good perfomance/energy usage ratio.

You are barking up the wrong tree. Cell phones and laptops are a totally different ball game. Particularly because cell phones are a single process device used only for consumption.

PCs are multiprocess devices used for both consumption and development.

You need both optimized software and processing power. Plus if you want to talk about optimization, what do you think will have better optimization, a new gpu architecture that no developer has yet to try or a gpu architecture that is well used in gaming?

Quote from: JayN on June 05, 2020, 15:31:18
Renoir goes back to monolithic design, drops pcie4. 

Renoir has no answer to Tiger Lake's integrated features Thunderbolt, avx512, wifi6, 8k60 encoding, Optane support and, now, laptop pcie4.

AMD's answer to to all these features is just to add more hammers.

You can do thunderbolt, wifi6 externally, it would put less load on the cpu too. Doing 8k encoding on igpu makes no sense either. Optane is useless and there is no removable gpus and current gpus can't take advantage of pcie4.

And you are aware 5000 series will come out 3 month after tigerlake right?

As much of an excuse this might sound, he is right, tho.

Just look at ARM cpus in cellphones. You dont need to have the greatest and latest Snapdragon Chip to have a smooth device. Actually, the best experience comes out of the most optimized software.

Knowing Intel, they will probably shrink their die size again, and improve energy efficiency, andif they manage to pull it off, they can then show off how their CPU does the same work with half the energy used or something like that.

Remember, in laptops, it is not who is more powerful, but rather who last longer while keeping a good perfomance/energy usage ratio.

Quote from: JayN on June 05, 2020, 15:31:18
Renoir has no answer to Tiger Lake's integrated features Thunderbolt, avx512, wifi6, 8k60 encoding, Optane support and, now, laptop pcie4.

AMD designs can do Thunderbolt too, if it's wanted (it's mostly not).
AVX512 is near-useless on desktop, what good is it in a laptop?
AMD designs can do WiFi 6 too.
8k60 encoding from what input?
Who cares about Optane?
What's PCIe4 supposed to do in a laptop besides drain more power?

Standard fanboy crap - pop out a list of meaningless ancillary features and pretend it's definitive. "Oh, but my SEGA MegaDrive has BLAST PROCESSING"

Yeah, benchmarks are no more important, because Intel sucks!!!

@ john
"Money lake" 😂😂😂

Renoir goes back to monolithic design, drops pcie4. 

Renoir has no answer to Tiger Lake's integrated features Thunderbolt, avx512, wifi6, 8k60 encoding, Optane support and, now, laptop pcie4.

AMD's answer to to all these features is just to add more hammers.