I always find it comical that people make such a big deal about speakers on a laptop.  Even a relatively cheap set of headphones or external speakers will sound WAY better than the best laptop speakers, and If I'm ever doing anything where sound is that important, that's exactly what I'd use.  I think the up firing speakers are better than what previous models offer, but I'd GLADLY sacrifice them for a slightly wider keyboard that has full size arrow keys and home/end/page up/down buttons (without needing a function key).

Quote from: _MT_ on April 23, 2020, 21:17:48

Doesn't have to. But my first laptop was Dell. They have the best on site service (Lenovo couldn't touch them even if they had a barge pole, not in my country; better to save money and carry it in). And they often give me laptops practically for free (because I buy servers). So, you know... I want Dells to be good. And it's not like Lenovo P1 has a numeric keyboard. T590/ P53s have pathetic processors. Precision 7530 had pathetic cooling. I mean, an 8 core in a workstation performing like a 6 core in a multimedia thin and light? For something like $500 extra (list price)? I can get over ultrabooks sucking. I hate when they ruin workstations as well.

To be honest, numpad isn't a deal breaker to me. I might not even like how it looks or feels (the asymmetry isn't very pleasing). But, if the chassis is big enough and we're talking about a workhorse, it should be there. In a multimedia machine, I understand the preference for speakers. In an ideal world, you'd have a choice. Really, it's the prevalence of 16:9 screens that's made me broaden my horizons. And it makes the coming XPS systems interesting. Despite their quite a few faults. It's slim pickings if you don't want 16:9.

I guess there will be a numpad integrated in the normal keys, so you can switch that u i o and so on behave like the numpad. Usefull? I don't know.

"workstations" are available from Dell, HP, Lenovo, MSI, Asus at least, about the best service, I don't know, Asus has 16:10 ratio e.g. too, HP has slim and normal ones, we will see what comes out this year...

QuoteI don't mind having a GeForce. If I ever wanted to amuse myself with a bit more demanding game.

Sure, everyone has different needs. I don't game at all. No discrete GPU = more cooling capacity for the CPU when compiling ;D

QuoteI almost never use laptops on my lap. Despite the name. :) The ergonomics just suck. I don't want to even imagine writing a lot of code that way. That's why I have a proper office at home and I spared no expense on the chair or desk. I just make more money this way.

Don't get me wrong. I have a proper desk with a proper chair and a 43" monitor. Working on the couch while lying down is just a lot more comfortable if you are spending the whole day in front of computer. The ergonomics are actually better than sitting, because you relieve the spine. Actually the best is to switch between the desk and the couch.

QuoteIf I'm sitting at a table, I can generally scoot to the left so that I'm centered with respect to the main part of the keyboard and the touchpad. The screen is off center but I can make it work. Again, it's a lesser of two evils kind of thing. I don't need a huge centered touchpad.

What I'm not getting is why would you ever use the touchpad if you're working at your desk? At the desk you can actually use a proper mouse. It seems to be a lot more convenient - at least to me.

Now imagine all the laptop producers who have to deal with us, a lot more different approaches and needs, and release only a couple of notebooks to fit us all. A tough business  ;)

Quote from: misku on April 23, 2020, 21:09:33
I'll probably buy the Precision variant as it offers more configuration options and lower TDP GPUs which I don't care about.

Yeah...about that...I doubt that the average consumer is a software developer  ;D

That's the thing. During home office times I mosty work from my couch  8) I need the touchpad centered while my wrists are resting on both sides of it. Not sure about other people but my hands are more or less symmetrical  ;)

If I were to get the Precision over XPS, it would be for ECC memory. I don't mind having a GeForce. If I ever wanted to amuse myself with a bit more demanding game.

I guess that's the thing. I almost never use laptops on my lap. Despite the name. :) The ergonomics just suck. I don't want to even imagine writing a lot of code that way. That's why I have a proper office at home and I spared no expense on the chair or desk. I just make more money this way.

If I'm sitting at a table, I can generally scoot to the left so that I'm centered with respect to the main part of the keyboard and the touchpad. The screen is off center but I can make it work. Again, it's a lesser of two evils kind of thing. I don't need a huge centered touchpad. And accidental clicks are going to properly p*** me off. It all hinges on palm rejection. I wouldn't want to bet on it if I can choose. Really, it's a question of me not trusting them to deliver.

Quote from: Sterlinger on April 23, 2020, 18:58:33
simple solution: buy a laptop with a numpad, why does it have to be from Dell?

Doesn't have to. But my first laptop was Dell. They have the best on site service (Lenovo couldn't touch them even if they had a barge pole, not in my country; better to save money and carry it in). And they often give me laptops practically for free (because I buy servers). So, you know... I want Dells to be good. And it's not like Lenovo P1 has a numeric keyboard. T590/ P53s have pathetic processors. Precision 7530 had pathetic cooling. I mean, an 8 core in a workstation performing like a 6 core in a multimedia thin and light? For something like $500 extra (list price)? I can get over ultrabooks sucking. I hate when they ruin workstations as well.

To be honest, numpad isn't a deal breaker to me. I might not even like how it looks or feels (the asymmetry isn't very pleasing). But, if the chassis is big enough and we're talking about a workhorse, it should be there. In a multimedia machine, I understand the preference for speakers. In an ideal world, you'd have a choice. Really, it's the prevalence of 16:9 screens that's made me broaden my horizons. And it makes the coming XPS systems interesting. Despite their quite a few faults. It's slim pickings if you don't want 16:9.

QuoteMy critique was primarily aimed at the Precision variant which is going to have identical layout. You can have your retarded XPS. ;)

I'll probably buy the Precision variant as it offers more configuration options and lower TDP GPUs which I don't care about.

QuoteI have no problem with that (I understand that the average consumer has very different needs).

Yeah...about that...I doubt that the average consumer is a software developer  ;D

QuoteYes, a proper numpad would shift the keyboard much more and it looks weird and even feels weird if you can't adjust your position (like when it's on your lap).

That's the thing. During home office times I mosty work from my couch  8) I need the touchpad centered while my wrists are resting on both sides of it. Not sure about other people but my hands are more or less symmetrical  ;)

simple solution: buy a laptop with a numpad, why does it have to be from Dell?

Quote from: misku on April 23, 2020, 12:17:16
Then it seems I was waiting for exactly that kind of a retarded laptop with even more retarded touchpad and nice stereo speakers on both sides ;D

I never use the numpad and I hate left-shifted small touchpads (I'm using my right hand to operate it). Yes, I know they are centered against the spacebar - still nope.

If it comes with AMD 4900H/HS - instant purchase.

My critique was primarily aimed at the Precision variant which is going to have identical layout. You can have your retarded XPS. ;) I have no problem with that (I understand that the average consumer has very different needs). Seriously, even without a numpad, touchpad should be (slightly) shifted to the left. It should be centered around G and H keys, not the whole keyboard. The right side is wider than left side. I type a lot and very fast. And it's hugely annoying when spurious clicks caused by a palm cause the cursor to jump around or, even worse, click on buttons and do stuff. Either the palm rejection has to be practically perfect, or the touchpad should be between palm rests rather than being a palm rest. For me, laptop is all about typing. That's why I have a clamshell laptop and not a tablet. Yes, a proper numpad would shift the keyboard much more and it looks weird and even feels weird if you can't adjust your position (like when it's on your lap). But XPS doesn't even offer the secondary numpad via function key like Latitudes and Precisions have since forever. A lot of people have to input a lot of numbers. And that's when numpad is worth its weight in gold.

I never had problems with small touchpads as long as they were good. Drag and drop or selection using purely touchpad, no buttons, no clickpad, even across the entire screen, it worked. I wouldn't call it fun. I wouldn't want to do it too much I guess (never had to so don't know). Fortunately, I use mainly keyboard. Even on a desktop, I hate if I have to touch a mouse. It slows me down. That's why I never really understood clickpads. To me, they were solving a problem that didn't exist. In my laptops, tapping on the touchpad always worked well. Even 15 years ago.

Just as an example, my mother is an accountant. Because of the current situation, company gave her a laptop. Without a numpad. To an accountant. And I live in a country where the numeric row isn't primarily numeric (we've got about 40 letters). Not that it would be comfortable to use for someone who has been using traditional numpad/ calculator layout daily for over 30 years and can punch in numbers at lightning speed. Not to mention all the scientists and engineers. People preparing quotes, budgets, etc. All it takes is typing out a single IP address for me to be reminded how nice is a numeric keyboard. It's not ideal in a laptop, but it can be practical.

QuoteEven if you don't want the touchpad, you are being cheated out of a lot of useful keys like page up, page down, home, end and etc. It's a compromised laptop to lower cost by reusing parts.

I think you meant numpad. You are right about the other keys, yet I still don't need them to be separate.

QuoteThere is also no such thing as "nice stereo speakers" for laptops. The problem with laptop speakers is they are low wattage, so even $10 external speakers are better than the best laptop speakers.

Like @orwellian mentioned, nice laptop speakers exist (MBP 16"). And it's not about home cinema experience, but to get sth better than most of the laptops because there is enough space to put something bigger there (and facing the user) instead having to squeeze a small speaker somewhere and have the sound coming from the side or the back.

Quote from: A on April 23, 2020, 13:21:04There is also no such thing as "nice stereo speakers" for laptops. The problem with laptop speakers is they are low wattage, so even $10 external speakers are better than the best laptop speakers.

The fact is that if my freaking phone sounds MUCH better than 99% laptops, then manufacturers have no excuse for those shitty speakers.

Also, ever heard a Macbook Pro? Decent laptop speakers do exist.

Quote from: misku on April 23, 2020, 12:17:16

QuoteXPS 17... a 17 inch laptop without a numpad is full on retarded...

QuoteThose huge touchpads also annoy me.

Then it seems I was waiting for exactly that kind of a retarded laptop with even more retarded touchpad and nice stereo speakers on both sides ;D

I never use the numpad and I hate left-shifted small touchpads (I'm using my right hand to operate it). Yes, I know they are centered against the spacebar - still nope.

If it comes with AMD 4900H/HS - instant purchase.

Even if you don't want the touchpad, you are being cheated out of a lot of useful keys like page up, page down, home, end and etc. It's a compromised laptop to lower cost by reusing parts.

There is also no such thing as "nice stereo speakers" for laptops. The problem with laptop speakers is they are low wattage, so even $10 external speakers are better than the best laptop speakers.

QuoteXPS 17... a 17 inch laptop without a numpad is full on retarded...

QuoteThose huge touchpads also annoy me.

Then it seems I was waiting for exactly that kind of a retarded laptop with even more retarded touchpad and nice stereo speakers on both sides ;D

I never use the numpad and I hate left-shifted small touchpads (I'm using my right hand to operate it). Yes, I know they are centered against the spacebar - still nope.

If it comes with AMD 4900H/HS - instant purchase.

Quote from: Rouslan on April 23, 2020, 01:31:26
XPS 17... a 17 inch laptop without a numpad is full on retarded...

Not really, there are a lot more people upset for having the TKL keyboard decentered with the screen than people who cannot do without the numpad. Just go to any Thinkpad related forum (the laptops with best keyboards) and just watch how Lenovo is lambasted for putting the numpad in their machines.

Quote from: Rouslan on April 23, 2020, 01:31:26
XPS 17... a 17 inch laptop without a numpad is full on retarded...

On a multimedia machine, I can get over it. But on the derived Precision workstation (57x0), it's going to be retarded, as you say. Especially since XPS keyboards don't have the secondary numpad via function key like Latitudes/ Precisions traditionally have. Those huge touchpads also annoy me. I hope they have perfect palm rejection.

Quote from: Rouslan on April 23, 2020, 01:31:26
XPS 17... a 17 inch laptop without a numpad is full on retarded...

Not a lot of people use numpads anyways, better speakers will be a more drastic change. It's a chame the arrow keys are still half-sized, though.