Quote from: Aastra on February 13, 2020, 12:43:58
And they lecture about democracy and all kinds of BS to countries like India. Which had always been a pacifist. Western countries have no right to preach others when they themselves don't follow it.

India's been a pacifist? Tell that to Pakistan? Tell that to Kashmir and Sikkim and the prince states India assimilated through military actions? India also colonized part of what the PRC inherited from the Qing dynasty, when China didn't have the resources to defend it. You seem quite deluded.

Quote from: _MT_ on February 13, 2020, 19:21:27

Quote from: S.Yu on February 12, 2020, 23:14:49
Wow, just wow. The depoliticized atmosphere of Germany and Switzerland meant that the CIA and BND had to go through great lengths to keep most employees of this intelligence operation in the dark, and free press at numerous points in history threatened its existence. Ultimately, its presence was still exposed by the press.

Actually, it'd be quite easy. Most of the company can be completely in the dark. You really only need the people who design the encryption. Not even the engineers who implement it, just the cryptographer. Which can be a single person in a small company. It could even be an external consultant. And they can willingly consult with an outfit like the NSA (this is what happened to the RSA Security, if we believe them, where they took NSA at their word - if they say it's good, it's good; after all, they're very good at cryptography; but it can be intentionally and fatally flawed). Of course, having someone in the management to steer the sales in the right direction, perhaps even at the cost of profitability, would help. So, management staffed by spooks, a crypto boffin from the NSA/ CIA or their German counterparts in the engineering department and you're done. The rest doesn't need to know.

I don't think you read the original article, they were very careful about who to hire because engineers too bright would have discovered the vulnerabilities, and still it was discovered more than once during the history of that operation. It involved clever lying to cover it up, while China would have had many more means of coverup and there would be less need for keeping employees out of the fold in the first place.

Quote from: S.Yu on February 12, 2020, 23:14:49
Wow, just wow. The depoliticized atmosphere of Germany and Switzerland meant that the CIA and BND had to go through great lengths to keep most employees of this intelligence operation in the dark, and free press at numerous points in history threatened its existence. Ultimately, its presence was still exposed by the press.

Actually, it'd be quite easy. Most of the company can be completely in the dark. You really only need the people who design the encryption. Not even the engineers who implement it, just the cryptographer. Which can be a single person in a small company. It could even be an external consultant. And they can willingly consult with an outfit like the NSA (this is what happened to the RSA Security, if we believe them, where they took NSA at their word - if they say it's good, it's good; after all, they're very good at cryptography; but it can be intentionally and fatally flawed). Of course, having someone in the management to steer the sales in the right direction, perhaps even at the cost of profitability, would help. So, management staffed by spooks, a crypto boffin from the NSA/ CIA or their German counterparts in the engineering department and you're done. The rest doesn't need to know.

And they lecture about democracy and all kinds of BS to countries like India. Which had always been a pacifist. Western countries have no right to preach others when they themselves don't follow it.

Wow, just wow. The depoliticized atmosphere of Germany and Switzerland meant that the CIA and BND had to go through great lengths to keep most employees of this intelligence operation in the dark, and free press at numerous points in history threatened its existence. Ultimately, its presence was still exposed by the press.

Imagine how easy it would have been running this operation in China, with children raised under increasingly radicalized and nationalist education and forever louder propaganda. I recently encountered a kid in his late teens who admitted, unabashedly, that he reported (on Wechat, to the censors) everything that, according to his naïve teenage judgement is "unsubstantiated", which, according to his own account is basically everything he doubts that's not officially recognized by the Party's mouthpieces like People's Daily and CCTV.

And this kid is from a developed city in a wealthy province, not one of those inland backwater crannies, imagine the impact of the brainwash and censorship there where no outside voice travels. If even Switzerland, who avoided military conflict in WWI and remained neutral in WWII, who already exercises some direct democracy, could keep knowledge of a morally questionable but strategically valuable intelligence operation under wraps, then how easy is it gonna be for the CCP to assemble a group of mindless lapdogs, and tap in to their customers under a shell like a telecoms provider with the cover of state censorship? And the strategic value of 5G in and of itself is nothing compared to enemy intelligence, not worth the Party throwing billions into certain companies and demanding various forms of transfusions from other companies with close ties to the Party.

I said it before and I'll say it again that I fear most of the west is too civilized for its own good. Look how difficult it is to manage sensitive matters when too many people could think for themselves and have their own judgement. Emperor Pooh will not hesitate, or rather, has never hesitated in using savagery at both the tactical and strategic level, to foreigners, to political enemies, and to the people. I feel the battle between the US and that dictatorship is like the Federation vs. the Borg, and excluding a dramatic turn, this would not end well for the Federation.