Vance: Sorry, but those factories you speak of are not Chinese establishments. Those were all capital developed and brought in by foreign companies. The Chinese had absolutely no know how regarding manufacturing. The only thing Chinese about the factories was the labor, because they have plenty of it. Furthermore, the only reason why these counterfeits even have a customer base is purely because of their lower prices, not because of anything else. That naturally comes as a consequence of cheating.

Also, once again, I was not the one talking about morals. That was Ath, and ironically to a certain extent yourself, in the form of what goes around comes around. I am fully aware that copying is as old as humans itself, and I would agree with you if we were sharing tea in an ivory tower. But I don't care about any of that in the real world. I am very practical, and all I care about is the present and the world order we live in and how we should all conduct ourselves in it. China, or anyone else, has no right to steal or copy things just because of the cyclical nature of history. Anyone who wants to progress must follow the rule of law or else face the consequences. If you don't like the rule of law, then by all means, flout it, just like China is doing. But don't expect a smile and a pat on your back.

@Jason FX

You're partly right. Many ideas are easier to copy. And there is no point in re-inventing the wheel when it originally had to fit with the standard of western sourced goods anyway, so simply follow and tweak the established format - "copying" if you insist. Which is essentially the first step towards real innovation. You don't just innovate out of thin air. While the Chinese still copy, they were already highly innovative in several ways to begin with. Their factories for example are top of the line. It's not just about what you make, but innovations in process and manufacturing facilities. That's why the real things (not just the copies) are often also manufactured in same place. It takes much more than "copy" to become successful. When a copycat takes a marker by its horn, it means they have done a better job: despite being late, they attracted customers.

I brought up those inventions because they are key advances throughout history that were created by China that have been replicated by the rest of the world. You don't hear the Chinese complaining about plagiarizing. Whereas the West has been stealing and copying from China and the rest of the world for over thousands of years to further their economies. Then they so conveniently exempted themselves from paying monetary compensation under their arbitrary Colonial "law".

From silkworms to tea/India, until the late Qing dynasty, the West was still in an inferior trade position with their demand for Chinese products like tea and porcelain being well known. Eventually they ended up compensating with barbarism and drugging China at gun point with the Opium Wars. Hilariously, the West is perpetually in an inferior trade imbalance position. In the past, it was due to strong demand for expensive Chinese products with no reciprocal demand for western products. Today, even when China is labelled with low quality and cheap products, the West STILL suffers from a trade imbalance.

Moreover, the US supported a nation-wide policy of intellectual theft and sheltered the 20th century's two most hated war criminals (Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan) in order to gain technology that was paid for by the blood of thousands of horrifically tortured and murdered victims – while preaching breathlessly about international law, innovation, freedom, and justice.

Unmistakably the concept of fairness is very vague, for almost every power has copied from other powers. Hence it isn't a useful yardstick. Which is why the moral implication that you are so eagerly trying to insinuate here is not tenable at all, because our history has a tendency of repeating itself. Hate to break it to you but I'm afraid nothing that is happening right now is anything new under the sun.

In this day and age, a more stark reality is not that certain western parties won't follow suit, but that they can't because they lack the necessary skills to achieve the feat. In other words, they're just a bunch of fearful sitting ducks quacking away IP this and copyright that. And rightfully intimidated they should be, because the Chinese economy is displaying an astonishingly rapid and consistent growth and are well projected to surpass the West due to the sheer number of their population and capital. Case in point, the seven fastest supercomputers in the world today are "Made in China". The number one fastest supercomputer uses Chinese R&D chips, not imported.

No, I'm not a wumao, I simply believe in certain Chinese spirit of things. Perhaps you really are more enlightened on the subject matter than I am, since you're the one claiming to be a Chinese American immigrant who's thoroughly worked the inside layers of your industry.

Jason,

Thank you for taking the time to comment and clear up the (perhaps deliberate) misdirection regarding the issues with Chinese companies, and by extension, the ruling Chinese Communist Party. Self-censorship (and failing that, imposed censorship) is certainly a goal of every authoritarian state.

Douglas

Quote from: Ath on December 04, 2018, 11:39:20Brian: Which MeFoto? MeFoto are known for the long central column design and lightweight construction. The Sirui is waterproof, with O-rings, something that no MeFoto is.

I can partially answer for Brian even though I don't know the specifics of this product. What he's talking about is probably like what I already tried to explain in my first comment when my business and others like me take products to trade shows or outsource production to China.

Chinese businesses will either counterfeit it or literally siphon away the exact same product that is coming out of the assembly line for companies like me who developed it, and then simply rebadge it with a Chinese name. Sometimes they will make easy modifications to introduce some differences from the original product they counterfeited, which might account for the differences you are referring to.

Quote from: Ath on December 04, 2018, 11:39:20
Jason FX.: Of course, but that happens with the countries. Having factories in China, obviously makes it easier to copy and rebrand. I am not denying IP theft or counterfeits. However, I am against absolutes such as  "all Chinese products are copied" or quotes such as "they're not smart enough to develop cutting edge technology themselves." There are genuinely good China-based companies.

I think we are essentially on the same page. It's like I explained in my first comment, nobody is talking in absolutes even if the literal words might seem that way. The fact of the matter is, practically speaking, China as a nation has a very pervasive culture of stealing and copying. Nobody says this to mean that every single person does this. You also have to keep in mind that those "genuinely good" China-based companies almost always have attained their products through espionage or counterfeiting. That is why in my first comment, I tried to give you a peak into my world of how businesses operate in China.

Quote"Well as you, Jason, probably know, it's all politics. See the "west" loves to criticize China and earn points for their adoring public, and the insecure, mediocre bystanders love buying into this fallacy of the strong west having China by the throat."

Vance, thanks for reconfirming that you are a wumao. Guess what? I'm Chinese myself and I wasn't always living in the US. I immigrated here. I have both a very ground and high level view of how Chinese people think and how the Chinese government operates, so I'm not some "adoring public" who buys into some "fallacy." Yes it is politics, but it's not one dimensional like the way you're depicting it. It is a stark reality that China is almost exclusively focused on stealing or copying from wherever they can. Anyone who has worked there can attest to this.

Quote
"Simple truth is, China is the best right now. Not just at copying, but at almost every tech, including the A.I, robotics, blockchain and green energy. And all of it is being manufactured and developed directly by the Chinese that are currently light years ahead of the wallowing west. And China is getting better fast. Much better."

Simple truth is that almost all of those inroads were given to China by the West. Like I explained in my first comment, China begs foreign researchers to come to China to establish the hubs to spearhead research into those fields. What China does is that within 10 years, all those foreigners will be expelled and replaced by Chinese workers who can now simply piggy back off of the hard work of others once the heavy lifting is done.

Quote"The word "copying" is such an "unfair generalization" as you've so generously described. See it's rather a inspirational and revolutionary art. And just like everything, it's not really a risk free high return investment. The practice in itself demands you to step outside your comfort zone and painstakingly create new methods. To challenge yourself beyond what you thought possible and adapt against the wind of change. Not everyone has what it takes, certainly not everyone will break through to the other side."

Those weren't my words. Those were Ath's. Copying is both hard and easy, but not for the same reason. It's hard work to just put yourself on that path, just like anything that takes effort is. But it's infinitely easy because almost anyone on that path can do it because the map has already been drawn for them. It's cheating. Period. Cheating is hard in that it takes time and physical effort, but that "effort" is different from the effort of ingenuity and daring that was required to make the initial breakthroughs when no one else did. That's why R&D is costly in terms of money, time, and brain trust. China simply decided they didn't want to put in this effort and bypassed all of these costs. So go ahead, applaud China's hard work in stealing and copying. It's still stealing and copying.

Quote"As they say, it's not who does it first, but who does it best. And absolutely everything is in the execution. Winning the race James, won't have the doves shower down and place a gold medal around your neck in the real world. Instead, being first and sticking your neck out into the open is often times a tragic way to lose your head."

It's both, for different reasons. China was neither first nor are they the best. As for your metaphor, I know my Chinese sayings from my youth, and you just gave yourself away again as a wumao.

Quote"Today, you won't hear the Chinese people complaining about how the west stole their 4 greatest inventions - the compass, gunpowder, printing, and paper - because that's not who they are anymore. Progress doesn't wait for anybody to play catch-up. One day, the west will wake up from their dream and see the world with clear eyes, and by then, it will be too late."

You know why? Because "today" is thousands of years away from that past. It is asinine to utilize the word "stole" to what happened thousands of years ago in the same way as how "stole" is used in today's context. Might as well blame homo sapiens for "stealing" fire from the neanderthals.

@Jason FX

Well as you, Jason, probably know, it's all politics. See the "west" loves to criticize China and earn points for their adoring public, and the insecure, mediocre bystanders love buying into this fallacy of the strong west having China by the throat.

Simple truth is, China is the best right now. Not just at copying, but at almost every tech, including the A.I, robotics, blockchain and green energy. And all of it is being manufactured and developed directly by the Chinese that are currently light years ahead of the wallowing west. And China is getting better fast. Much better.

The word "copying" is such an "unfair generalization" as you've so generously described. See it's rather a inspirational and revolutionary art. And just like everything, it's not really a risk free high return investment. The practice in itself demands you to step outside your comfort zone and painstakingly create new methods. To challenge yourself beyond what you thought possible and adapt against the wind of change. Not everyone has what it takes, certainly not everyone will break through to the other side.

As they say, it's not who does it first, but who does it best. And absolutely everything is in the execution. Winning the race James, won't have the doves shower down and place a gold medal around your neck in the real world. Instead, being first and sticking your neck out into the open is often times a tragic way to lose your head.

Today, you won't hear the Chinese people complaining about how the west stole their 4 greatest inventions - the compass, gunpowder, printing, and paper - because that's not who they are anymore. Progress doesn't wait for anybody to play catch-up. One day, the west will wake up from their dream and see the world with clear eyes, and by then, it will be too late.

Jason FX.: Of course, but that happens with the countries. Having factories in China, obviously makes it easier to copy and rebrand. I am not denying IP theft or counterfeits. However, I am against absolutes such as  "all Chinese products are copied" or quotes such as "they're not smart enough to develop cutting edge technology themselves." There are genuinely good China-based companies.

Brian: Which MeFoto? MeFoto are known for the long central column design and lightweight construction. The Sirui is waterproof, with O-rings, something that no MeFoto is.

Interesting that the Sirui WX-2023 tripod a user on here praises is basically a carbon copy of the MeFoto tripod thats been available for years. Its as if people honestly think these Chinese companies are making new designs. However, 2 seconds of searching shows yet another example of ripping off someones IP.

Riddle me this, Batman.

If the Chinese are well-known to be ripping off technology thru supply and manufacturing companies foreign companies contract, then why do they keep doing it? Clearly NDAs mean nothing.

It doesn't make sense to me to risk your crown jewels using them.  Is the money saved in supplies and manufacturing more than than the loss from tech being stolen? Or does the allure of saving a few bucks makeit worth using a less-reputable company rather than paying extra to use a more trustworthy company?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Why keep using these vendors it they keep stealing IP?

If people stopped doing business with these companies, they'd lose money and either close up shop or get the idea they can't keep ripping off their customers' IP if they want to stay in business.

Innovate in one country, then have the product manufactured by a crooked communist government. People can be smart and stupid at the same time. All people and businesses are owned by China's communist government.

Vance must be a wumao.

Ath: Not many people are aware of this, but I would not be surprised if many of the examples you listed are products developed or innovated by foreign companies and then rebadged by Chinese counterfeiters. I, and many colleagues within my industry, have witnessed this many times.

We will engineer product X, take it to a trade show or contract a manufacture in China to assemble it, then 1 year later or sometimes less, an identical product but with a Chinese name on it will appear at the next trade show.

This counterfeiting by the Chinese happens everywhere to small business people like me all the way to giant corporations. That's how you see "Chinese" tripods, lenses, or earphones that are in actuality designed by some foreign company that have been copied or siphoned off the assembly line to various shadowy Chinese companies.

Several think tanks estimate that China's intellectual property theft costs our country more than $300 billion every year, and China's stealing IP for decades.

Patents are another example of things not appearing what they seem in China. Not many people are also aware of this, but most patents filed in China are bogus or are carbon copies of existing patents found elsewhere in the world. Those who don't know this would think there are a lot of patents being filed in China. The only reason why there are so many patents filed in China right now is because the Communist government has made it a stated goal to increase their filing number by "stuffing" the pool to appear "innovative" in patent ranks. The Communist government gives extra money to anyone who does this. This is why a lot of patents coming out of China are actually very low quality, and their research papers follow this same low quality but high yield practice. This is why almost every industry in China practically begs foreigners to come to China to kickstart their research groups, because China does not have the know how. The government dangles very enticing financial packages to foreigners, but many still do not take it because of the negative association and risks of working with the Chinese.

I agree with you that one can not say that 100% of people in China steal or copy, but when anywhere from 40 to 90% of Chinese rampantly steal IP, the really unfair thing to do would be to say that we should be fair and not generalize.

If there's an overwhelming culture of stealing or copying that runs amok in China, any rational person can make a perfectly reasonable generalization that China as a nation can be characterized as a thief. It doesn't mean everyone is, but it is a significant and meaningful swath of people. It makes no rational or judicious sense to flatten people's generalizations in the name of "fairness" when that generalization serves as an accurately working model.

New tech at half the price?  Sign me up.

I love how the defenders scream racism when it has nothing to do with racism just IP theft which CHINA is very well known for.
I know it , you know it, everyone knows it CHINA is not known for any innovation just copy and theft .
They will pay for it one day and with the US tariffs they are starting to feel the pain, we need more ways to stop this sort of crap and punish those guilty......hard.

I must assume that Samsung would hold a patent on the screen production methods...of course this will then be fully protected and lawsiits will be filed against any entities , companies violating the patents ....